Forum: n-Track Studio Discussion Forum
Topic: Better toke a new one, Mr. Soul...
started by: clark_griswold

Posted by clark_griswold on Jun. 13 2006, 3:57 PM
Cuz this must hurt you in all kinds of ways...

< http://www.startribune.com/587/story/489575.html >

Posted by BobBlais on Jun. 14 2006, 2:49 AM
and TomS has been waiting for a Rove indictment........guess he'll have to put Rove's orange jumpsuit back in the closet and prejudge someone else.................oh! wait a minute! It doesn't matter what Fitzgerald said, Rove is still guilty dagnabbit!! He's friends with Bush! He HAS to be guilty! I just know he is! Those wascally wepublicans will get thiers!!  :p
Posted by TomS on Jun. 14 2006, 2:24 PM
Hrmph.  I have been waiting for it - based on a reasonably good journalist's sources it was coming - but I haven't prejudged - the guy is poison, Bob, part of a pack of jackels who are trying to make our democracy much less democratic, and has been involved in so many "ethically challenged" actions I'm surprised you defend him.  But "prejudge" is not the correct term here - since my judgment is based on what Rove has done, it can't be "prejudgment" - and there is always a distinction to be made between what the law will support in a given case, and the normative status of the totality of one's actions.  

Why do you want to defend him?

Posted by clark_griswold on Jun. 14 2006, 4:38 PM
No joy in Mudville.

It seems that Karl Rove the great and powerful puppet massster will not be charged with any crime in Plame kerfuffle. Sorry lefties, no perp march for Karl! As long as no one lies to the special prosecutor or the grand jury they will not be charged because there in fact seems to be no underlying crime. Plame did not fit the statue intention of being a “secret” agent, but simply at that point in her career was just a CIA employee. Libby on the other hand seems to be a dumbass that couldn’t help but lie to Fitzgerald.

Posted by clark_griswold on Jun. 14 2006, 4:46 PM
Hey Tom,

Please don't read into my posts as "defending" Rove...I am just having a go at the group of people out there suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome.

Cheers,
C

Posted by TomS on Jun. 14 2006, 5:50 PM
Oh, I was answering Bob.  :)

Funny thing is, the source for the NYT is Luskin, Rove's attorney, and Fitzgerald isn't talking.  It'd be really funny if it turned out to be false.  And Leopold, the original reporter, along with mark Ash of trouthout.com, are standing by their original reporting, although they won't reveal their sources.  

But it probably won't.  :)

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 15 2006, 12:21 AM
Yes - I'm very disappointed in Rove not being indicted but you should be also.  Rove lied to the American people, he lied to Fitzgerald and got away with it.  And if you don't think he lied, then you are a blind fool.

A CIA agents position was leaked to the press & we as Americans should not permit that kind of crap.  But this nation has gotten to the point where partisan politics is the norm of the day.

I listened to Bush this morning & it was pathetic.  We get the President that we deserve.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 15 2006, 12:30 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 14 2006,17:21)
Yes - I'm very disappointed in Rove not being indicted but you should also.  Rove lied to the American people, he lied to Fitzgerald and got away with it.  And if you don't think he lied, then you are a blind fool.

A CIA agents position was leaked to the press & we as Americans should not permit that kind of crap.  But this nation has gotten to the point where partisan politics is the norm of the day.

I listened to Bush this morning & it was pathetic.  We get the President that we deserve.

Rove testified five times and YOU think he LIED??? Libby is the one who was indicted, not Rove, and for lying. Why would Fitzy indict Libby and not Rove if Rove lied. Talk about living in denial.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 15 2006, 12:32 AM
Rove testified five times and YOU think he LIED???
Have you followed the case at all - obviously not?  Rove definitely lied about meeting with the Newsweek reporter.  He later testified that he had forgotten.  I (and Fitzgerald) think that he lied but if you can't prove it, then you've got no case.

Rove also lied to McCellan who tried to pitifully defend him.

It's a shame & disgrace.  Bush still won't even talk about it.  You all should be ashamed!

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 15 2006, 12:34 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 14 2006,17:32)
Have you followed the case at all - obviously not?  Rove definitely lied about meeting with the Newsweek reporter.  He later testified that he had forgotten.  I (and Fitzgerald) think that he lied but if you can't prove it, then you've got no case.

He may not be able to prove that Libby lied, but that's not stopping him. Why would he not be able to prove Rove lied, especially when you're so convinced that he did??
Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 15 2006, 12:36 AM
It's my belief that he lied.  Fitzerald just didn't have a case or Rove would have been indicted.

He told something that wasn't true.  You decide if it was a lie or not.

< http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13301765/from/RS.2/ >

WASHINGTON - The decision not to charge Karl Rove shows there often are no consequences for misleading the public.

In 2003, while Rove allowed the White House to tell the news media that he had no role in leaking Valerie Plame's CIA identity, the presidential aide was secretly telling the FBI the truth.

It's now known that Rove had discussed Plame's CIA employment with conservative columnist Robert Novak, who exposed her identity less than a week later, citing two unidentified senior administration officials.

Rove's truth-telling to the FBI saved him from indictment.

And by misleading reporters, the White House saved itself from a political liability during the 2004 presidential campaign.

While the president and the vice president underwent questioning by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald in 2004, Rove's role never surfaced. The lone blip on the radar screen was a one-day flurry of news stories the month before Election Day when Rove was brought before a federal grand jury - one of his five grand jury appearances in the probe.

The extent of Rove's involvement didn't become official until Oct. 28 of last year, when Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis Libby, was indicted on charges of perjury, obstruction and lying to the FBI about how he learned of Plame's CIA identity and what he told reporters about it.

The indictment recounted Rove's conversation with Novak about the CIA officer, as Rove later related it to Libby.

Posted by clark_griswold on Jun. 15 2006, 3:17 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 14 2006,17:21)
 Rove lied to the American people, he lied to Fitzgerald and got away with it.  And if you don't think he lied, then you are a blind fool.



It's my belief that he lied.  Fitzerald just didn't have a case or Rove would have been indicted.

He told something that wasn't true.  You decide if it was a lie or not.

Ok.

First post, he DID lie, correct?  you have irrefutable proof there, obviously, by the strength of your statement.

Second post, you BELIEVE he lied?  Did your proof vanish or...?

Posted by jeremysdemo on Jun. 15 2006, 4:33 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 14 2006,17:21)
And if you don't think he lied, then you are a blind fool.

Now now Mike,

Is it really nec. to resort to name calling?

We can all be civil in these debates.  :laugh:

Mis-informed, integrity deceived, benefit of the doubt, innocent until proven guilty....

But a fool?  

That's a harsh word to throw around among friends.  :p



You all should be ashamed!

Shame indeed.

Knowing your right and successfully convincing others of it are two different things.
And when you cross the line while educating all, you run the risk of being heard by none.

I myself am not innocent of this, only would share my shortcoming in the hopes it would benifit you.

keep shinin'

jerm

:cool:

Posted by KF on Jun. 15 2006, 6:53 AM
Jeremysdemo I've broke mustangs that were smarter than you, and all of them could spell better.

But I suppose every rodeo needs a clown.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 15 2006, 7:01 AM
Let's make it very simple - he told something that was untrue and the later said his memory was bad.  If Clinton had done that you would have called him a liar, so I'm using the Clinton standard.  He definitely McCellan that he wasn't involved but we know he was.

Even simplier - Rove told several reporters about Valerie Plame's identity and several days later Robert Novak printed that, thereby exposing her.  All the people that were invovled in the cover company she was working for were all exposed.  Anyone she knew when she worked overseas were exposed.  Outing a CIA agent is serious business, even if she was married to a partisan.

Posted by jeremysdemo on Jun. 15 2006, 7:55 AM
Quote (Guest @ June 14 2006,23:53)
Jeremysdemo I've broke mustangs that were smarter than you, and all of them could spell better.

But I suppose every rodeo needs a clown.

That's funny because I ran the words through a spell check.  ???
I guess it helps if you start out with the right word though!  :;):

Anyway, speaking of clowns....

Most clowns know how to sign up for a forum. And understand that they aren't listened too or taken seriously when they remain trolls.

I guess they eventually have to leave the cess pool again though! eh there bru! :p

My freinds call me, jerm, my aquaintances jeremy, but you sir are neither, so jeremysdemo is just fine thank you.


keep shinin'

jerm  :cool:


Posted by clark_griswold on Jun. 15 2006, 2:37 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,00:01)
Let's make it very simple - he told something that was untrue and the later said his memory was bad.  If Clinton had done that you would have called him a liar, so I'm using the Clinton standard.  He definitely McCellan that he wasn't involved but we know he was.

Even simplier - Rove told several reporters about Valerie Plame's identity and several days later Robert Novak printed that, thereby exposing her.  All the people that were invovled in the cover company she was working for were all exposed.  Anyone she knew when she worked overseas were exposed.  Outing a CIA agent is serious business, even if she was married to a partisan.

Thanks again for simplyfing something for me Mike.  I never grow tired.

You are a giver...

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 15 2006, 5:04 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,00:01)
Let's make it very simple - he told something that was untrue and the later said his memory was bad.  If Clinton had done that you would have called him a liar, so I'm using the Clinton standard.  He definitely McCellan that he wasn't involved but we know he was.

Let's make it simpler. Rove wasn't indicted after being called in FIVE times. If he mentioned to a couple of reporters that Wilson's wife got him the job, it was only to clear up the confusion that Wilson created by suggesting he was working for Cheney. The memo that Rove had access to mentioned nothing about Plame's job being sensitive or classified, so it's not like Rove would have known that Plame would be at risk.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,00:01)
Even simplier - Rove told several reporters about Valerie Plame's identity and several days later Robert Novak printed that, thereby exposing her.  All the people that were invovled in the cover company she was working for were all exposed.  Anyone she knew when she worked overseas were exposed.  Outing a CIA agent is serious business, even if she was married to a partisan.

Let's make this more "simplier." If you're a CIA agent whose cover needs to be protected, don't tell your boss that your husband can do a job for the company and then let your husband write an editorial about the job in a major newspaper. Friends, family and neighbors get suspicious when they've never seen where you worked and all of a sudden your husband gets a temporary job helping the CIA with no background in that type of work and no known assocation to the CIA. Wouldn't take too much to figure out there might be a connection with the wife.

Posted by clark_griswold on Jun. 15 2006, 6:10 PM
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

- Ronald Reagan

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 15 2006, 7:05 PM
ksdb - I do agree that Rove has not been indicted, therefore is  presumed innocent.  However, I want whomever leaked Plame's name to be held accountable.  Do you want that - a simple yes or no will suffice.  Please answer this question.

If he mentioned to a couple of reporters that Wilson's wife got him the job, it was only to clear up the confusion that Wilson created by suggesting he was working for Cheney.
This is complete lie!  Wilson never worked for Cheney and he never said that he did - everyone knows that.  The right-wing press completely mis-stated this point & you bloody know it.

Let's make this more "simplier." If you're a CIA agent whose cover needs to be protected, don't tell your boss that your husband can do a job for the company and then let your husband write an editorial about the job in a major newspaper. Friends, family and neighbors get suspicious when they've never seen where you worked and all of a sudden your husband gets a temporary job helping the CIA with no background in that type of work and no known assocation to the CIA. Wouldn't take too much to figure out there might be a connection with the wife.
This is where I don't agree with you.  In fact, I can't even really follow what you're saying here, i.e., it doesn't make any sense to me.  If you're suggesting that Wilson shouldn't have written his original article, then I disagree.  If you're suggesting that he gave away her identity then you've got to prove it.  And you've completely mistated Wilson's credentials to the point of smearing him, so you are completely wrong here.  Even Novak praised Wilson's credentials, as you pointed out long ago when we discussed this before.

People knew that Wilson was a former state dept. worker, so it would not be unusual for him to get a gig with the CIA to go to Niger.  People did not know Plame worked for the CIA so how would they make the connection?  Too funny - ksdb.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 15 2006, 7:56 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,12:05)
ksdb - I do agree that Rove has not been indicted, therefore is  presumed innocent.  However, I want whomever leaked Plame's name to be held accountable.  Do you want that - a simple yes or no will suffice.  Please answer this question.

Actually I want an honest answer as to whether she was truly covert, and if so, why she would put her job at risk by bringing her husband to work.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,12:05)
If he mentioned to a couple of reporters that Wilson's wife got him the job, it was only to clear up the confusion that Wilson created by suggesting he was working for Cheney.

This is complete lie!  Wilson never worked for Cheney and he never said that he did - everyone knows that.  The right-wing press completely mis-stated this point & you bloody know it.
Nonsense. Read Wilson's own column. His own words made it sound like he was working directly for the vice president. Don't try to blame this on your right-wing bogeyman.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,12:05)
Let's make this more "simplier." If you're a CIA agent whose cover needs to be protected, don't tell your boss that your husband can do a job for the company and then let your husband write an editorial about the job in a major newspaper. Friends, family and neighbors get suspicious when they've never seen where you worked and all of a sudden your husband gets a temporary job helping the CIA with no background in that type of work and no known assocation to the CIA. Wouldn't take too much to figure out there might be a connection with the wife.

This is where I don't agree with you.  In fact, I can't even really follow what you're saying here, i.e., it doesn't make any sense to me.  If you're suggesting that Wilson shouldn't have written his original article, then I disagree.
That's your perogative. I just know that I wouldn't risk my wife's cover by telling the world I worked for her boss when she had a hand in getting me the job, especially if she truly had a sensitive position. How stupid can two people be??

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,12:05)
If you're suggesting that he gave away her identity then you've got to prove it.

He put her at risk by going public.

 
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,12:05)
And you've completely mistated Wilson's credentials to the point of smearing him, so you are completely wrong here.

Nonsense. Your smear accusation is imaginary. Wilson was not a trained CIA operative. Saying so is not a matter of smear.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,12:05)
 Even Novak praised Wilson's credentials, as you pointed out long ago when we discussed this before.

He was being nice. Wilson was still not trained for CIA work and he obviously couldn't keep his mouth shut. That latter part doesn't bode particularly well for an "intelligence" job.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,12:05)
People knew that Wilson was a former state dept. worker, so it would not be unusual for him to get a gig with the CIA to go to Niger.

He didn't work for the CIA. The state department is not the CIA and people in Washington can distinguish between the two.

 
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,12:05)
People did not know Plame worked for the CIA so how would they make the connection?  Too funny - ksdb.

You like to ignore the obvious. They didn't know where she worked and they wouldn't have been able to confirm who she worked for. It's not like she could invite people to the office to visit. If your wife suddenly got a job for the CIA and wrote a newspaper column about it, people would wonder what you do in your private life when they've never seen you at a regular job site.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 15 2006, 9:54 PM
Actually I want an honest answer as to whether she was truly covert.
And that's the way it always is with you ksdb.  This has all been discussed - why don't you look it up?  Right from Fitzgerald:

Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer. In July 2003, the fact that Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer was classified. Not only was it classified, but it was not widely known outside the intelligence community. Valerie Wilson's friends, neighbors, college classmates had no idea she had another life. The fact that she was a CIA officer was not well known for her protection or for the benefit of all of us. It's important that a CIA officer's identity be protected, they be protected not just for the officer but for the nation's security.

Valerie Wilson's cover was blown in July 2003.
Why is it that you don't believe this?  Do you think Fitzgerald is mistaken (or dumb).

In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office.
Bullshit.  This is what he said & it is true.  The right-wing press miscontrued this to suggest he said that Cheney sent him.  Both Wilson & the Senate Report clarified that Cheney never asked Wilson to go on this trip.

He put her at risk by going public.
I just don't see that at all.

He didn't work for the CIA. The state department is not the CIA and people in Washington can distinguish between the two.
Sheer speculation & inference on your part.

If your wife suddenly got a job for the CIA and wrote a newspaper column about it, people would wonder what you do in your private life when they've never seen you at a regular job site.
You don't see my point.  I would agree with you if Wilson had not worked for the State Dept.   And is this your rationalization for Novak's blowing her cover?

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 16 2006, 1:26 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,14:54)
Actually I want an honest answer as to whether she was truly covert.

And that's the way it always is with you ksdb.  This has all been discussed - why don't you look it up?  Right from Fitzgerald:

Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer. In July 2003, the fact that Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer was classified. Not only was it classified, but it was not widely known outside the intelligence community. Valerie Wilson's friends, neighbors, college classmates had no idea she had another life. The fact that she was a CIA officer was not well known for her protection or for the benefit of all of us. It's important that a CIA officer's identity be protected, they be protected not just for the officer but for the nation's security.

Valerie Wilson's cover was blown in July 2003.
Why is it that you don't believe this?  Do you think Fitzgerald is mistaken (or dumb).
Wake up McFly. Fitzgerald doesn't indicate that she had a covert role. In fact, he went out of his way to avoid it and chose to mention that she was classified.

Let me say two things. Number one, I am not speaking to whether or not Valerie Wilson was covert. And anything I say is not intended to say anything beyond this: that she was a CIA officer from January 1st, 2002, forward. I will confirm that her association with the CIA was classified at that time through July 2003. And all I'll say is that, look, we have not made any allegation that Mr. Libby knowingly, intentionally outed a covert agent. We have not charged that. And so I'm not making that assertion.
Why wasn't Libby charged with revealing the leak of a "classified" officer?? Because there's no law against it?? Fitzgerald is shooting very low in this case because there's not much there.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,14:54)
In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office.

Bullshit.  This is what he said & it is true.  The right-wing press miscontrued this to suggest he said that Cheney sent him.  Both Wilson & the Senate Report clarified that Cheney never asked Wilson to go on this trip.
Nonsense. Wilson's own words and ego are written to make it sound like he was working FOR the vice president. Your quote proves it. Thank you. Wake up, read and comprehend what's going on. Give up the rw-press, bogeyman nonsense. No one buys it.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,14:54)
He put her at risk by going public.

I just don't see that at all.
Don't or won't admit??

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,14:54)
He didn't work for the CIA. The state department is not the CIA and people in Washington can distinguish between the two.

Sheer speculation & inference on your part.
Prove me wrong.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,14:54)
If your wife suddenly got a job for the CIA and wrote a newspaper column about it, people would wonder what you do in your private life when they've never seen you at a regular job site.

You don't see my point.  I would agree with you if Wilson had not worked for the State Dept.   And is this your rationalization for Novak's blowing her cover?
Novak called the CIA to confirm that she worked there. They did. Why would they do that if her identity needed protection??

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 16 2006, 3:05 AM
Wake up McFly. Fitzgerald doesn't indicate that she had a covert role. In fact, he went out of his way to avoid it and chose to mention that she was classified.
So your position is that it was OK to leak her name if it was only classified?  A simple yes or no will suffice.

Plame had what's called "non-official" cover.  It's my understanding that it's a felony to out someone with this status, but I could be wrong about it.

Why wasn't Libby charged with revealing the leak of a "classified" officer?? Because there's no law against it??
Are you sure about that?

Fitzgerald is shooting very low in this case because there's not much there.
Nice - now you're smearing Fitzgerald.  I have heard nothing but praise about this man.

Seriously - you should contact Fitzgerald & just explain to him why this whole investigation is a waste of time because no law was broken.

Wilson's own words and ego are written to make it sound like he was working FOR the vice president.
Nonsense to you!  Any "reasonable" person would not interpret it that way.  Only a right-wing idelogue would interpret the way you do.  I undersand what Wilson said perfectly and I expect more from you ksdb because I suspect that you are intelligent.

Don't or won't admit??
I'd admit it if I thought it was true but it's not.  Seriously - it's one of the furthest stretches I've ever heard coming from you.  And you need to prove it because you're making the claim, not me.

Prove me wrong.
I don't have to do that.  Any person can see you are speculating by the language you use.  You need to learn the difference between facts (observations) and inferences (speculation).

Novak called the CIA to confirm that she worked there. They did. Why would they do that if her identity needed protection??
That's a boldfaced LIE and/or DISTORTION!!!  This is what Novak said:

At the CIA, the official designated to talk to me denied that Wilson's wife had inspired his selection but said she was delegated to request his help. He asked me not to use her name, saying she probably never again will be given a foreign assignment but that exposure of her name might cause "difficulties" if she travels abroad. He never suggested to me that Wilson's wife or anybody else would be endangered. If he had, I would not have used her name. I used it in the sixth paragraph of my column because it looked like the missing explanation of an otherwise incredible choice by the CIA for its mission.

Novak got most of his information about Plame from 2 senior administration officials.  By the time that Novak called the CIA, they knew that Novak knew, so your point is idiotic.

You've maintained all along that this whole matter is Joe Wilson's fault.  That tells me a lot about you ksdb and your values.

Please answer my simple questions - are you afraid to do that?

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 16 2006, 4:27 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,20:05)
Wake up McFly. Fitzgerald doesn't indicate that she had a covert role. In fact, he went out of his way to avoid it and chose to mention that she was classified.

So your position is that it was OK to leak her name if it was only classified?  A simple yes or no will suffice.
In this case yes, because there was a conflict of interest and an abuse of privilege on the parts of Plame and Wilson.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,20:05)
Plame had what's called "non-official" cover.  It's my understanding that it's a felony to out someone with this status, but I could be wrong about it.

If it's known ahead of time. There's no indication that her status was known by those accused of leaking her name.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,20:05)
Why wasn't Libby charged with revealing the leak of a "classified" officer?? Because there's no law against it??

Are you sure about that?
I read Fitzy's indictment charges against Libby. Nothing there about revealing a classified officer.

Count 1: Obstruction of Justice
Count 2: False statement
Count 3: False statement
Count 4: Perjury
Count 5: Perjury

Hmmm, where's the count on revealing classified info?? How can Fitz put up five counts such as these and not go ahead with a charge of leaking??

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,20:05)
Fitzgerald is shooting very low in this case because there's not much there.

Nice - now you're smearing Fitzgerald.  I have heard nothing but praise about this man.
Give me a break and drop the ignorant smear accusation everytime you don't like to face the truth. Perjury and obstruction of justice are lower than a leaking charge. It's not smear to point this out. This has nothing to do with Fitz's character or reputation.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,20:05)
Seriously - you should contact Fitzgerald & just explain to him why this whole investigation is a waste of time because no law was broken.

Libby's lawyers tried already. He'll have his day in court.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,20:05)
Wilson's own words and ego are written to make it sound like he was working FOR the vice president.

Nonsense to you!  Any "reasonable" person would not interpret it that way.  Only a right-wing idelogue would interpret the way you do.  I undersand what Wilson said perfectly and I expect more from you ksdb because I suspect that you are intelligent.
Speaking of smear, you take every cheap opportunity to question the intelligence of anyone who doesn't lock step with your POV. It's tiresome and needless.

The CIA hired Wilson to do the job, and he had no reason at all to mention the vice president in the column he wrote. It was gratuitous and misleading.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,20:05)
Don't or won't admit??

I'd admit it if I thought it was true but it's not.  Seriously - it's one of the furthest stretches I've ever heard coming from you.  And you need to prove it because you're making the claim, not me.
Nonsense. If you had a classified or covert position, the last thing you would do is invite your husband to work for that company and then let him write editorials about it in the newspaper. If she dealt with people who had any suspicions about her, and then they saw her husband bragging about working for the CIA, it wouldn't take long to make a connection, and her ass would be grass.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,20:05)
Prove me wrong.

I don't have to do that.  Any person can see you are speculating by the language you use.  You need to learn the difference between facts (observations) and inferences (speculation).
You think it's only speculation that people in Washington would know the difference between the CIA and the State Department?? Maybe some folks are oblivious, but not the people who pay attention to their community.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,20:05)
Novak called the CIA to confirm that she worked there. They did. Why would they do that if her identity needed protection??

That's a boldfaced LIE and/or DISTORTION!!!  This is what Novak said:

At the CIA, the official designated to talk to me denied that Wilson's wife had inspired his selection but said she was delegated to request his help. He asked me not to use her name, saying she probably never again will be given a foreign assignment but that exposure of her name might cause "difficulties" if she travels abroad. He never suggested to me that Wilson's wife or anybody else would be endangered. If he had, I would not have used her name. I used it in the sixth paragraph of my column because it looked like the missing explanation of an otherwise incredible choice by the CIA for its mission.

Novak got most of his information about Plame from 2 senior administration officials.  By the time that Novak called the CIA, they knew that Novak knew, so your point is idiotic.
You keep proving me right by posting quotes that back up what I already explained. Novak called the CIA. If the CIA needed to protect her, all they had to do was deny knowing her or deny that she worked there.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,20:05)
You've maintained all along that this whole matter is Joe Wilson's fault.  That tells me a lot about you ksdb and your values.

Yes, it shows that I recognize an attention whore when I see one. Ask Joe how many copies of his book he sold. Most people who are worried about their wife's safety would  keep a low profile or go into hiding. Instead Joe and Valerie posed for the cover of Vanity Fair. Joe makes the rounds on the political and news shows every chance he gets. How does this protect his wife whose life was allegedly endangered by exposing her identity??

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 15 2006,20:05)
Please answer my simple questions - are you afraid to do that?

Your simple questions have been addressed. Have the honesty to admit it and drop the name calling and baiting.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 16 2006, 7:10 AM
In this case yes, because there was a conflict of interest and an abuse of privilege on the parts of Plame and Wilson.
Well there you have it folks.  There's not much more I can add to this discussion.

I couldn't disagree with you more on most of what you say here and it's really pointless to continue.

And we are completely out of sync on the Fitizgerald/Libbey issue.  I am not saying that Libbey was the one who leaked Plame's name and therefore he is not guilty of the crime, which is why he was not indicted for those things.  Geez - what is it so hard to communicate with you, man.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 16 2006, 9:16 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,00:10)
In this case yes, because there was a conflict of interest and an abuse of privilege on the parts of Plame and Wilson.

Well there you have it folks.  There's not much more I can add to this discussion.

I couldn't disagree with you more on most of what you say here and it's really pointless to continue.

And we are completely out of sync on the Fitizgerald/Libbey issue.  I am not saying that Libbey was the one who leaked Plame's name and therefore he is not guilty of the crime, which is why he was not indicted for those things.  Geez - what is it so hard to communicate with you, man.
Difficult?? Why?? Because I disagree with you?? Or are you just mad because Rove got an early Fitzmas present??  :laugh:
Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 16 2006, 6:44 PM
Difficult?? Why?? Because I disagree with you?? Or are you just mad because Rove got an early Fitzmas present?
I don't have a problem that we disagree.  If I did I wouldn't discuss anything with you.  But when we can't agree on the meaning of English sentences I have a problem.   When we can't agree on the base ethics, e.g., outing a CIA agent who status is classified with non-official cover is wrong, I have problems.

Regardless of whether you agree with Joe Wilson or not, his op-ed piece was well written.  The paragraph that mentions Cheney, that I cited above, was an essental part of his essay which established the premise for his trip, his findings & opinions.  I'm positive that my college technical writing professor would agree with me on that.

It doesn't matter if his wife suggested his name or not to the CIA, the CIA asked him to go to Niger on this trip.  We have to trust their judgement on this.

If we can't agree on these essentials, then what's the point of debating?  If we can't agree that Fitzgerald's investigation is important, then what's the point?  If we can't agree what are FACTS and what are INFERENCES, then what's the point?

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 16 2006, 8:23 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,11:44)
Difficult?? Why?? Because I disagree with you?? Or are you just mad because Rove got an early Fitzmas present?

I don't have a problem that we disagree.  If I did I wouldn't discuss anything with you.  But when we can't agree on the meaning of English sentences I have a problem.
I won't argue that you have problems with English, but I don't take that as a cheap excuse to call you stupid the way that you do to me.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,11:44)
  When we can't agree on the base ethics, e.g., outing a CIA agent who status is classified with non-official cover is wrong, I have problems.

The ethics are much larger than you're admitting. It was a conflict of interest and nepotism for Plame to recommend her husband to perform work for the CIA, especially given his vocal stance against the administration. Second, there's no reason for the CIA to hire the family members of agents who have NOC status or any need for secrecy. This was plainly a stupid move on both parties.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,11:44)
Regardless of whether you agree with Joe Wilson or not, his op-ed piece was well written.

Nonsense. It was what you like to call a smear piece and grandstanding on the part of someone who had very little involvement.

 
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,11:44)
The paragraph that mentions Cheney, that I cited above, was an essental part of his essay which established the premise for his trip, his findings & opinions.

It was essential for creating a false impression that Wilson had a larger role than he really did. Wilson had not met with Cheney, had not consulted with Cheney's aides and did not have a memo from Cheney requesting his assistance. He was contracted by the CIA. Mentioning Cheney was gratuitous and unnecessary.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,11:44)
 I'm positive that my college technical writing professor would agree with me on that.

This is a meaningless and irrelevant boast. Bring in an actual testimonial if you have one instead of presuming such nonsense.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,11:44)
It doesn't matter if his wife suggested his name or not to the CIA, the CIA asked him to go to Niger on this trip.  We have to trust their judgement on this.

Why?? The CIA doesn't exactly have a spotless reputation for intelligence gathering. They didn't even ask Wilson for a written report. Has the CIA not been faulted for other intelligence failures?? Why would we assume this particular instance involved good judgment??

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,11:44)
If we can't agree on these essentials, then what's the point of debating?  If we can't agree that Fitzgerald's investigation is important, then what's the point?  If we can't agree what are FACTS and what are INFERENCES, then what's the point?

The point that your assumptions are wrong. If you can't deal with it, then move along.

Posted by phoo on Jun. 16 2006, 8:57 PM
It was a conflict of interest and nepotism for Plame to recommend her husband to perform work for the CIA, especially given his vocal stance against the administration.
Nepotism, yes, but am I missing something or not? His vocal stance wasn't against the administration, at least not at first. He did what they asked and they didn't like what he found. He didn't say anything against them until later. I mean, he was one of them until the facts he found didn't support their view, then he became one of them....or are you suggesting that he was a mole and took the job with the explicit intentions of finding facts that were contrary to what the administration was saying at the time? Are you implying that Plame and Wilson were in this together from the beginning to discredit the administration?

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 16 2006, 9:04 PM
I won't argue that you have problems with English, but I don't take that as a cheap excuse to call you stupid the way that you do to me.
Nice - there you go, belittling me now.  I don't have problems with English in this example but when I do, I would admit to it.

The ethics are much larger than you're admitting. It was a conflict of interest and nepotism for Plame to recommend her husband to perform work for the CIA, especially given his vocal stance against the administration. .
This statement reveals your bias and inclination to inferences rather than fact.  How do you know what Wilson's stance was on the admin before his trip to Niger?  Prove your claim.  Wilson has a distinquished career working for both Republican & Democratic administrations.

Second, there's no reason for the CIA to hire the family members of agents who have NOC status or any need for secrecy. This was plainly a stupid move on both parties.
You may have a point here, but you need to prove it.  Why would sending Joe Wilson on a non-classified mission jeopordize his wife's status?  Why would anyone suspect that his wife as a CIA agent as the result of this?  You've made this claim but you cannot verify it.  In any event, if this was a valid issue, then the CIA officials who made the decision to send Wilson were at fault.  Surely the CIA has rules on this.

It was essential for creating a false impression that Wilson had a larger role than he really did.
Bullshit - this is a complete & utter inference!  Cheney's request was the whole impetus for this mission.  Wilson mentioned Cheney because it gave his mission credibility and more so, it was the TRUTH.  Do you deny that Cheney asked the CIA for this information?  I hope you do because I'll prove you wrong with the Senate report.

This is a meaningless and irrelevant boast. Bring in an actual testimonial if you have one instead of presuming such nonsense.
No it is not.  Do you take technical writing in college?  My professor was very hard & she would not permit ill constructed essays.

Why?? The CIA doesn't exactly have a spotless reputation for intelligence gathering. They didn't even ask Wilson for a written report.
So what? He briefed them - is that not standard procedure?

The point that your assumptions are wrong. If you can't deal with it, then move along.
Same to you.  My assumptions are not wrong and you need to learn to distinquish between facts & inferences.

You wouldn't have had any problem with this if Wilson had come back from Niger and reported that he had found evidence of Iraq trying to get yellow-cake, now would you?

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 16 2006, 9:06 PM
Quote (phoo @ June 16 2006,13:57)
It was a conflict of interest and nepotism for Plame to recommend her husband to perform work for the CIA, especially given his vocal stance against the administration.

Nepotism, yes, but am I missing something or not? His vocal stance wasn't against the administration, at least not at first. He did what they asked and they didn't like what he found. He didn't say anything against them until later. I mean, he was one of them until the facts he found didn't support their view, then he became one of them....or are you suggesting that he was a mole and took the job with the explicit intentions of finding facts that were contrary to what the administration was saying at the time? Are you implying that Plame and Wilson were in this together from the beginning to discredit the administration?
I'm not ruling out anything. This is a guy that wrote a book and started making lots of TV appearances to capitalize on his (and her) victimhood. I'm not impressed with his integrity. If he felt that he found something of value, he should have gone directly to the top with his concerns after the President's SOTU address in 2003. Wilson waited nearly six months to go public and this was AFTER the war had started. If his information would have disputed the reason for going to war, why did wait until two or three months after the war was under way to say anything?? And why did he write an editorial instead of working through channels since he had "inside" connections??

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 16 2006, 9:13 PM
He wrote the book after she had been outed.  I've listened to Joe Wilson - he's more articulate than you are.

If he felt that he found something of value, he should have gone directly to the top with his concerns after the President's SOTU address in 2003.
Now this is a laugh.  Where the #### would he have gone?

Wilson waited nearly six months to go public and this was AFTER the war had started.
So what?

And why did he write an editorial instead of working through channels since he had "inside" connections??
This is laughable.  What channels?

What inside connections?  Wilson did the appropriate thing - he took his concerns to the court of public opinions.

Again - if Wilson had written an article in support of the admin's decision, you would have supported him wholeheartily now wouldn't you?

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 16 2006, 9:43 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:04)
I won't argue that you have problems with English, but I don't take that as a cheap excuse to call you stupid the way that you do to me.

Nice - there you go, belittling me now.  I don't have problems with English in this example but when I do, I would admit to it.
Funny, this double standard of yours that it's okay for you to belittle me, but all of a sudden you cry foul when I merely repeat YOUR OWN WORDS.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:04)
The ethics are much larger than you're admitting. It was a conflict of interest and nepotism for Plame to recommend her husband to perform work for the CIA, especially given his vocal stance against the administration. .

This statement reveals your bias and inclination to inferences rather than fact.  How do you know what Wilson's stance was on the admin before his trip to Niger?  Prove your claim.  Wilson has a distinquished career working for both Republican & Democratic administrations.
He worked directly for Al Gore and Thomas Foley (Democrats) in the 1980s. He held prominent positions under Clinton but did not serve under Bush 43 (until the CIA gig). His campaign contributions over the last few years skew much more to the left.

WILSON, JOSEPH C
WASHINGTON,DC 20007
J. C. WILSON INTL. VENTURES/STRATEG
3/26/1999
$2,000
Gore, Al

WILSON, JOSEPH C IV
WASHINGTON,DC 20007
J C WILSON INTERNATIONAL
5/13/1999
$1,000
Kennedy, Edward M

WILSON, JOSEPH C IV
WASHINGTON,DC 20007
JCWILSON INTERNATIONAL VENTURE
5/20/1999
$1,000
Bush, George W

WILSON, JOSEPH C IV
WASHINGTON,DC 20007
CONSULTANT
6/25/2000
$500
Royce, Ed

WILSON, JOSEPH C MR IV
WASHINGTON,DC 20007
J. C. WILSON INTL. VENTURES/STRATEG
3/26/1999
$2,000
Gore, Al

WILSON, JOSEPH C MR IV
WASHINGTON,DC 20007
J. C. WILSON INTL. VENTURES/STRATEG
4/22/1999
($1,000)
Gore, Al

WILSON, JOSEPH C
WASHINGTON,DC 20007
JC WILSON INTERNATIONAL VENTURES/BU
5/23/2003
$1,000
Kerry, John

WILSON, JOSEPH C
WASHINGTON,DC 20007
JC WILSON INTERNATIONAL VENTURES/CE
9/4/2003
$1,000
Kerry, John

WILSON, JOSEPH C III
CHATTANOOGA,TN 37404
ARBITRATOR MEDIATOR
12/4/2001
$250
Thompson, Fred

WILSON, JOSEPH C III
CHATTANOOGA,TN 37404
MEDIATOR
10/7/2002
$250
Alexander, Lamar

WILSON, JOSEPH C IV
WASHINGTON,DC 20007
JC WILSON INT. VENTURE/FINANCE
2/13/2002
$1,000
HILLPAC

WILSON, JOSEPH C IV
WASHINGTON,DC 20007
SELF/CONSULTANT
9/25/2002
$250
Rahall, Nick

WILSON, JOSEPH C MR III
CHATTANOOGA,TN 37404
SELF-EMPLOYED
8/2/2004
$500
Republican National Cmte

WILSON, JOSEPH C MR III
CHATTANOOGA,TN 37404
  1/23/2004
$250
Republican National Cmte

WILSON, JOSEPH C MR III
CHATTANOOGA,TN 37404
SELF-EMPLOYED
10/29/2004
$250
Republican National Cmte

WILSON, JOSEPH C MR IV
WASHINGTON,DC 20007
SELF/CONSULTANT
6/28/2001
$500
Royce, Ed

WILSON, JOSEPH C MR IV
WASHINGTON,DC 20007
SELF/CONSULTANT
6/12/2002
$500
Royce, Ed



Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:04)
Second, there's no reason for the CIA to hire the family members of agents who have NOC status or any need for secrecy. This was plainly a stupid move on both parties.

You may have a point here, but you need to prove it.
I don't need to prove anything. This is your lazy way of trying to avoid a common sense argument.

 
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:04)
Why would sending Joe Wilson on a non-classified mission jeopordize his wife's status?  Why would anyone suspect that his wife as a CIA agent as the result of this?  You've made this claim but you cannot verify it.

Again, pure intellectual laziness. It's risky to employ family members of someone whose identity needs protection.

Ex. Wilson shows up in Niger and tells people he's working for the CIA. Then one of those folks remembers seeing Wilson's wife in Niger a month earlier. Whooopsie.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:04)
 In any event, if this was a valid issue, then the CIA officials who made the decision to send Wilson were at fault.  Surely the CIA has rules on this.

You would think they do. Because they threw caution to the wind would indicate they were NOT concerned about Plame's identity.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:04)
It was essential for creating a false impression that Wilson had a larger role than he really did.

Bullshit - this is a complete & utter inference!
No. It's called reading comprehension and it's based on Wilson's self-backpatting editorial.

 
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:04)
Cheney's request was the whole impetus for this mission.  Wilson mentioned Cheney because it gave his mission credibility and more so, it was the TRUTH.

He was working for the CIA. How much more credibility did he need by mentioning Cheney??

 
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:04)
Do you deny that Cheney asked the CIA for this information?  I hope you do because I'll prove you wrong with the Senate report.

Cheney didn't ask the CIA to have Wilson do the job. That's the point. Wilson blurred that point in his editiorial. This was why Cheney wanted the facts clarified with the press.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:04)
This is a meaningless and irrelevant boast. Bring in an actual testimonial if you have one instead of presuming such nonsense.

No it is not.  Do you take technical writing in college?  My professor was very hard & she would not permit ill constructed essays.
I have a degree in journalism. I know quite a bit about writing and editing. Your posts here wouldn't earn you very good grades and you are in no position to make judgments about the quality of Joe Wilson's writing.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:04)
Why?? The CIA doesn't exactly have a spotless reputation for intelligence gathering. They didn't even ask Wilson for a written report.

So what? He briefed them - is that not standard procedure?
And then he didn't follow up to see if his information was useful. He just assumed he had done something helpful without confirming it.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:04)
The point that your assumptions are wrong. If you can't deal with it, then move along.

Same to you.  My assumptions are not wrong and you need to learn to distinquish between facts & inferences.
Your assumptions are often wrong and don't preach about facts and inferences when have you plenty of trouble in that area.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:04)
You wouldn't have had any problem with this if Wilson had come back from Niger and reported that he had found evidence of Iraq trying to get yellow-cake, now would you?

Actually, the CIA originally believed that Wilson's findings supported that connection. Of course you already knew this from reading the senate report. If Wilson had found something meaningful, he should have said something in January 2003, not July 2003.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 16 2006, 9:51 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:13)
He wrote the book after she had been outed.  I've listened to Joe Wilson - he's more articulate than you are.

You don't have any idea of how articulate I am. Once again, you take a cheap shot EVERY TIME you can't defend a debate point.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:13)
If he felt that he found something of value, he should have gone directly to the top with his concerns after the President's SOTU address in 2003.

Now this is a laugh.  Where the #### would he have gone?
Are you being purposely dense or are you really this oblivious?? I thought you read Wilson's editorial.

"The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip "

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:13)
Wilson waited nearly six months to go public and this was AFTER the war had started.

So what?
Was he worried about the troops and the war or was he worried about making a name for himself. If I had important information that could prevent a war, I would share it immediately.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:13)
And why did he write an editorial instead of working through channels since he had "inside" connections??

This is laughable.  What channels?
He worked for two presidents and several politicians plus he had connections at the state department AND THE CIA and you DON'T KNOW WHAT CHANNELS?? Are you really this dense??

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:13)
What inside connections?  Wilson did the appropriate thing - he took his concerns to the court of public opinions.

Re-read my previous reply. You're really putting yourself in a hole today.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,14:13)
Again - if Wilson had written an article in support of the admin's decision, you would have supported him wholeheartily now wouldn't you?

This is meaningless speculation. What happened to your insistence on facts and avoiding inferences??

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 16 2006, 10:32 PM
This is your lazy way of trying to avoid a common sense argument.
F*ck y*u!  And I know exactly how articulate you are from this forum.  And I used to actually have some respect from you.  The funny thing is that you are just like you say I am - when someone doesn't agree with you, you can't accept it.

And thanks for proving that Wilson was non-partisan!  No true liberal would have given any money to G.W.B.

If I had important information that could prevent a war, I would share it immediately.
You're living in a dream world.  Anyone who's crossed this admin has been struck down.  Wilson also defended himself completely in another op-ed piece.

Mr. Know-It-All - would you like me to contact Fitzgerald & the CIA for you and tell them I know someone who can explain the whole thing to them, and how the whole thing is just silly.  I'm sure that they would love to hear from you.  Seriously - I'd be happy to contact them for you.

You can say what you what about me but you'll never be able to back up with any FACTs.

From the beginning of this discussion, you've tried to make Joe Wilson the issue here, but he is not.  You've done exactly the same thing as the right-wing did - attack Joe Wilson.

This issue is about Valerie Plame & that the fact that her identity was leaked to the press.  In your world, this is OK; in mine, it is not.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 16 2006, 10:41 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,15:32)
This is your lazy way of trying to avoid a common sense argument.

F*ck y*u!  And I know exactly how articulate you are from this forum.  And I used to actually have some respect from you.
What's the matter?? You can dish out insults but you can't handle being called lazy??

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,15:32)
Mr. Know-It-All - would you like me to contact Fitzgerald & the CIA for you and tell them I know someone who can explain the whole thing to them, and how the whole thing is just silly.  I'm sure that they would love to hear from you.  Seriously - I'd be happy to contact them for you.

Do it.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,15:32)
You can say what you what about me but you'll never be able to back up with any FACTs.

I present facts all the time. You just ignore the ones you can't handle.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,15:32)
From the beginning of this discussion, you've tried to make Joe Wilson the issue here, but he is not.  You've done exactly the same thing as the right-wing did - attack Joe Wilson.

Here it is again, the lazy smear accusation. Evidently it's only okay for Joe Wilson to smear the administration but he's supposed to be untouchable. Give us all a break with your immature double standards.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,15:32)
This issue is about Valerie Plame & that the fact that her identity was leaked to the press.  In your world, this is OK - in mine, it is not.

Yet, Libby is NOT being charged with leaking her identity. So is it really about the leak or is it about trying to bring down somebody in the administration?

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 16 2006, 10:48 PM
I don't like wasting my time debating right-wing ideologues.  You can call me whatever names you want.  You can call me lazy, but anyone who knows me, knows these things aren't true.

Evidently it's only okay for Joe Wilson to smear the administration but he's supposed to be untouchable.
Of course not.  First of all, he didn't smear the admin, so that statement is wrong.  Secondly, there were many things that the admin could have done to counter Joe Wilson instead of outing his wife.  But they choose the attack Joe Wilson's character, and they did that in the utter worst way - outing his wife who was a CIA agent who's name was classified & who had non-official cover.

I'm well aware of the Senate report & I don't think you accurately summed up the Wilson/Niger issue.  Plus, that report was controlled by Republicans and it is belittling to Wilson in places.

Yet, Libby is NOT being charged with leaking her identity. So is it really about the leak or is it about trying to bring down somebody in the administration?
That is a comletely false statement.  If you listened to Fitzgerald's press conference, you would know why Libbey was indicted.

I still hope the Fitzgerald charges someone with the leak but I don't think it will happen.  Either Rove or Libbey or Cheney, or one of their staff, did it.  If Fitzgerald doesn't know now then he will never know.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 16 2006, 11:09 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,15:48)
I don't like wasting my time debating right-wing ideologues.  You can call me whatever names you want.  You can call me lazy, but anyone who knows me, knows these things aren't true.

It was a comment about your debate crutches. And again, you are exercising a double standard because you are usually the first to take cheap shots and the first to whine when they are returned.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,15:48)
Evidently it's only okay for Joe Wilson to smear the administration but he's supposed to be untouchable.

Of course not.  First of all, he didn't smear the admin, so that statement is wrong.
He did by your definition. Yet another Mr Soul double standard exposed.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,15:48)
Secondly, there were many things that the admin could have done to counter Joe Wilson instead of outing his wife.

She helped him get the job. If he can't handle the truth, he shouldn't have taken the job. It's that simple.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,15:48)
 But they choose the attack Joe Wilson's character, and they did that in the utter worst way - outing his wife who was a CIA agent who's name was classified & who had non-official cover.

They had NO indication that her status was sensitive and again this was HER risk at being involved in getting him a job with the CIA. She could have told him not to go public, just in case it got out that she worked for the CIA.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,15:48)
I'm well aware of the Senate report & I don't think you accurately summed up the Wilson/Niger issue.  Plus, that report was controlled by Republicans and it is belittling to Wilson in places.

The truth hurts. Too bad.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,15:48)
Yet, Libby is NOT being charged with leaking her identity. So is it really about the leak or is it about trying to bring down somebody in the administration?

That is a comletely false statement.  If you listened to Fitzgerald's press conference, you would know why Libbey was indicted.
First, there's no E in Libby. Second, I listened to Fitz's press conference and subsequent announcements. Libby is not being chared for leaking Plame's identity. Trying Libby on perjury and OOJ is nothing more than a political grandstand to save face.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,15:48)
I still hope the Fitzgerald charges someone with the leak but I don't think it will happen.  Either Rove or Libbey or Cheney, or one of their staff, did it.  If Fitzgerald doesn't know now then he will never know.

Fitz has been fishing for a long time. Is it really this hard to bring up charges if you think people are lying?? Any other prosecuter probably would have indicted Libby or Rove for the leak by now. Such charges get filed all the time on flimsier evidence.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 16 2006, 11:41 PM
OK - I'll try to dispense with the cheap shots if you try.

He did by your definition.
Show me where he smeared the admin by my definition.  Prove your point because I don't see it.

She helped him get the job. If he can't handle the truth, he shouldn't have taken the job. It's that simple
Nope - not true or simple.  I was "helped" in getting the job where I work now by an individual who knew me and who introduced my resume to the powers at me.  However, it was me who got the job.  The same thing happened with Wilson, his wife introduced him but it was his credentials that got him the job.

They had NO indication that her status was sensitive and again this was HER risk at being involved in getting him a job with the CIA.
Who had no indication?

She could have told him not to go public, just in case it got out that she worked for the CIA.
Possibly but that didn't happen.  A lot of things could have hapened differently.

The truth hurts. Too bad.
Nope - the truth never hurt me.  In fact, it's always been my friend.

Trying Libby on perjury and OOJ is nothing more than a political grandstand to save face.
Is that your opinion or can you back that up with real facts?  It didn't stop the Congresss when they impeached Clinton for prejury, did it?

Seriously - either perjery or OOJ is wrong or it's not.

Fitz has been fishing for a long time. Is it really this hard to bring up charges if you think people are lying?? Any other prosecuter probably would have indicted Libby or Rove for the leak by now. Such charges get filed all the time on flimsier evidence.
Why do you say that?  Seems like you are speculating here to me.  Yes charges do get filed all the time but not against a high-level person in an administration.

So let's re-cap your position here:

1) You think this investigation is a waste of time
2) You think it was OK to release Plame's identity to the press
3) You think Wilson was smearing the admin

When is it OK to criticize an administration?

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 20 2006, 2:52 AM
In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office.
I looked back in the Senate report and on page 38, it clearly states that Cheney asked for the CIA analysis of 2002 DIA report.  And it was this request that the CIA's CPD discussed ways to answer Cheney's questions.  So everything that Wilson said was not only true, but was the basis for his trip to Niger.  In short, that paragraph was essential to Wilson's essay.

The Senate reports confirms that Plame only offered up Wilson's name after which he was chosen by the CPD.  Not only that but the CIA had already sent Wilson to Niger in 1999.  So there was nothing unusual about sending Wilson on another mission.

In summary, everything that happened here was above board.  Novak's original article about Wilson was smear plain & simple.  Rove simply wanted Novak to print an article downgrading Wilson's mission and making it seem like his wife got him the gig.  All lies for any reasonable person to see.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 20 2006, 6:55 PM
I guess ksdb is afraid to debate anymore?
Posted by clark_griswold on Jun. 20 2006, 7:04 PM
er, I doubt it...
Posted by Diogenes on Jun. 20 2006, 7:10 PM
Afraid? Naw. Perhaps like some of the rest of us, he just don't give a s#$t anymore...

D

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 20 2006, 7:14 PM
There's nothing to debate, despite Mr. Soul's attempt to bait. Wilson mentioned the vice president about six times in his editorial despite having not met with him nor having correspondence with him, yet he implies that he was working directly for him:

The vice president's office asked a serious question. I was asked to help formulate the answer.

Asked by whom?? Cheney?? Plame??

If I was Cheney and saw that, I'd be trying to find out who this joker was, who got him the job and why.

Posted by clark_griswold on Jun. 20 2006, 7:38 PM
TO:  MR. Soul
FR: The Office of Clark Griswold

Please give it a rest. Have some yellowcake.


Report back.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 20 2006, 7:40 PM
Nope - he doesn't imply that so stop being intellectually dishonest.  And Wilson did not mention Cheney 6 times in the article so you're lying about that.  And Cheney's office doesn't equal Cheney.  What are you right-wingers so dishonest?

Anyone who read the entire article would not agree with you.  Do I need to put up another poll?

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 20 2006, 7:52 PM
This is too easy. Vice president is listed FOUR Times and Cheney is mentioned by name TWICE.

What I Didn't Find in Africa  
by Joseph C. Wilson 4th
 
Did the Bush administration manipulate intelligence about Saddam Hussein's weapons programs to justify an invasion of Iraq?

Based on my experience with the administration in the months leading up to the war, I have little choice but to conclude that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat.

For 23 years, from 1976 to 1998, I was a career foreign service officer and ambassador. In 1990, as chargé d'affaires in Baghdad, I was the last American diplomat to meet with Saddam Hussein. (I was also a forceful advocate for his removal from Kuwait.) After Iraq, I was President George H. W. Bush's ambassador to Gabon and Săo Tomé and Príncipe; under President Bill Clinton, I helped direct Africa policy for the National Security Council.

It was my experience in Africa that led me to play a small role in the effort to verify information about Africa's suspected link to Iraq's nonconventional weapons programs. Those news stories about that unnamed former envoy who went to Niger? That's me.

In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office.

After consulting with the State Department's African Affairs Bureau (and through it with Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick, the United States ambassador to Niger), I agreed to make the trip. The mission I undertook was discreet but by no means secret. While the C.I.A. paid my expenses (my time was offered pro bono), I made it abundantly clear to everyone I met that I was acting on behalf of the United States government.

In late February 2002, I arrived in Niger's capital, Niamey, where I had been a diplomat in the mid-70's and visited as a National Security Council official in the late 90's. The city was much as I remembered it. Seasonal winds had clogged the air with dust and sand. Through the haze, I could see camel caravans crossing the Niger River (over the John F. Kennedy bridge), the setting sun behind them. Most people had wrapped scarves around their faces to protect against the grit, leaving only their eyes visible.

The next morning, I met with Ambassador Owens-Kirkpatrick at the embassy. For reasons that are understandable, the embassy staff has always kept a close eye on Niger's uranium business. I was not surprised, then, when the ambassador told me that she knew about the allegations of uranium sales to Iraq — and that she felt she had already debunked them in her reports to Washington. Nevertheless, she and I agreed that my time would be best spent interviewing people who had been in government when the deal supposedly took place, which was before her arrival.

I spent the next eight days drinking sweet mint tea and meeting with dozens of people: current government officials, former government officials, people associated with the country's uranium business. It did not take long to conclude that it was highly doubtful that any such transaction had ever taken place.

Given the structure of the consortiums that operated the mines, it would be exceedingly difficult for Niger to transfer uranium to Iraq. Niger's uranium business consists of two mines, Somair and Cominak, which are run by French, Spanish, Japanese, German and Nigerian interests. If the government wanted to remove uranium from a mine, it would have to notify the consortium, which in turn is strictly monitored by the International Atomic Energy Agency. Moreover, because the two mines are closely regulated, quasi-governmental entities, selling uranium would require the approval of the minister of mines, the prime minister and probably the president. In short, there's simply too much oversight over too small an industry for a sale to have transpired.

(As for the actual memorandum, I never saw it. But news accounts have pointed out that the documents had glaring errors — they were signed, for example, by officials who were no longer in government — and were probably forged. And then there's the fact that Niger formally denied the charges.)

Before I left Niger, I briefed the ambassador on my findings, which were consistent with her own. I also shared my conclusions with members of her staff. In early March, I arrived in Washington and promptly provided a detailed briefing to the C.I.A. I later shared my conclusions with the State Department African Affairs Bureau. There was nothing secret or earth-shattering in my report, just as there was nothing secret about my trip.

Though I did not file a written report, there should be at least four documents in United States government archives confirming my mission. The documents should include the ambassador's report of my debriefing in Niamey, a separate report written by the embassy staff, a C.I.A. report summing up my trip, and a specific answer from the agency to the office of the vice president (this may have been delivered orally). While I have not seen any of these reports, I have spent enough time in government to know that this is standard operating procedure.

I thought the Niger matter was settled and went back to my life. (I did take part in the Iraq debate, arguing that a strict containment regime backed by the threat of force was preferable to an invasion.) In September 2002, however, Niger re-emerged. The British government published a "white paper" asserting that Saddam Hussein and his unconventional arms posed an immediate danger. As evidence, the report cited Iraq's attempts to purchase uranium from an African country.

Then, in January, President Bush, citing the British dossier, repeated the charges about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.

The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip and suggested that if the president had been referring to Niger, then his conclusion was not borne out by the facts as I understood them. He replied that perhaps the president was speaking about one of the other three African countries that produce uranium: Gabon, South Africa or Namibia. At the time, I accepted the explanation. I didn't know that in December, a month before the president's address, the State Department had published a fact sheet that mentioned the Niger case.

Those are the facts surrounding my efforts. The vice president's office asked a serious question. I was asked to help formulate the answer. I did so, and I have every confidence that the answer I provided was circulated to the appropriate officials within our government.

The question now is how that answer was or was not used by our political leadership. If my information was deemed inaccurate, I understand (though I would be very interested to know why). If, however, the information was ignored because it did not fit certain preconceptions about Iraq, then a legitimate argument can be made that we went to war under false pretenses. (It's worth remembering that in his March "Meet the Press" appearance, Mr. Cheney said that Saddam Hussein was "trying once again to produce nuclear weapons.") At a minimum, Congress, which authorized the use of military force at the president's behest, should want to know if the assertions about Iraq were warranted.

I was convinced before the war that the threat of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein required a vigorous and sustained international response to disarm him. Iraq possessed and had used chemical weapons; it had an active biological weapons program and quite possibly a nuclear research program — all of which were in violation of United Nations resolutions. Having encountered Mr. Hussein and his thugs in the run-up to the Persian Gulf war of 1991, I was only too aware of the dangers he posed.

But were these dangers the same ones the administration told us about? We have to find out. America's foreign policy depends on the sanctity of its information. For this reason, questioning the selective use of intelligence to justify the war in Iraq is neither idle sniping nor "revisionist history," as Mr. Bush has suggested. The act of war is the last option of a democracy, taken when there is a grave threat to our national security. More than 200 American soldiers have lost their lives in Iraq already. We have a duty to ensure that their sacrifice came for the right reasons.



Posted by clark_griswold on Jun. 20 2006, 8:10 PM
Another poll?  for what?

To poll a bunch of recording hobbyists who, in large part, do not even live in the US and could care less about our little pissing matches in the first place?

you go girl.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 20 2006, 9:16 PM
Cheney's office does NOT equal Cheney.

But your statement is just silly because it was Cheney's request that was the basis for the mission.

So how many times would be OK?  Only 1 or two.  How about four times.  Too funny ksdb.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 20 2006, 9:42 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,14:16)
Cheney's office does NOT equal Cheney.

But your statement is just silly because it was Cheney's request that was the basis for the mission.

So how many times would be OK?  Only 1 or two.  How about four times.  Too funny ksdb.

No one said anything about the office equaling Cheney. Nice red herring. The repeated mentions were sufficient to create the impression that Wilson was working directly FOR the vice presidents. Regardless, Cheney asked for the CIA to get extra information, not to hire the husband of an agent who had no formal background in intel gathering.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 20 2006, 9:58 PM
You first made this claim but it isn't true.
Wilson mentioned the vice president about six times in his editorial

No one said anything about the office equaling Cheney. Nice red herring
Man - you just outright lie now!

You need to learn simple English.  What's the subject in "Vice President's office".  It's "office" and vice president is the modifier.  Same with "office of the vice president".

Cheney asked for the CIA to get extra information, not to hire the husband of an agent who had no formal background in intel gathering.
That's correct & that's exactly what the CIA did.  As for hiring Wilson, you really need to contact the CIA & let them know that they were just wrong.

You're too funny ksdb.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 20 2006, 10:11 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,14:58)
You first made this claim but it isn't true.
Wilson mentioned the vice president about six times in his editorial


No one said anything about the office equaling Cheney. Nice red herring
Man - you just outright lie now!

You need to learn simple English.  What's the subject in "Vice President's office".  It's "office" and vice president is the modifier.  Same with "office of the vice president".
I know you're desperate to gain rhetorical traction, but this is silly. If Wilson was doing work for the "office of the vice president," does this somehow mean he's NOT doing work for Cheney?? To claim there's a semantic distinction is absurd.

Second, your repeated abusive comments accusing me of lying are both immature and uncalled for. This does nothing to improve your own credibility or reputation.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,14:58)
Cheney asked for the CIA to get extra information, not to hire the husband of an agent who had no formal background in intel gathering.

That's correct & that's exactly what the CIA did.  As for hiring Wilson, you really need to contact the CIA & let them know that they were just wrong.
It's too late now. I just hope they learned from their mistake.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,14:58)
You're too funny ksdb.

Funny is someone who posts abusive language, accuses others of lying and says things like:

I don't like wasting my time debating right-wing ideologues.

But then repeatedly calls out that same "right-wing ideologue" with no other purpose but to waste time.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 20 2006, 10:34 PM
It's an important distinction despite your attempt to say it isn't.  Any reasonable person reading Wilson's article would know that he wasn't working directly for Cheney, yet you & the right-wing media tried to spin it that way.  You had to discredit Wilson anyway you could.

Say what you will ksdb but people here can see through your BS.  Particularly when you said it was OK to leak to Plame's name.  Your true colors shown through my friend.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 20 2006, 10:36 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,15:34)
It's an important distinction despite your attempt to say it isn't.  Any reasonable person reading Wilson's article would know that he wasn't working directly for Cheney, yet you & the right-wing media tried to spin it that way.  You had to discredit Wilson anyway you could.

Say what you will ksdb but people here can see through your BS.  Particularly when you said it was OK to leak to Plame's name.  Your true colors shown through my friend.

Your true colors are to smear me because you can't come up with reasonable explanation why Wilson chose to write an editorial instead of go back to the CIA and ask what happened to the report he filed.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 20 2006, 10:43 PM
Your true colors are to smear me
My true colors are to call BS when I see it.

because you can't come up with reasonable explanation why Wilson chose to write an editorial instead of go back to the CIA and ask what happened to the report he filed.
Too funny!  Nice try at diversionary tactics again.  Also, nice try to put me on the defense when I don't need to be on the defense.  Give me a reasonable explanation why Plame's name was leaked & I'll answer your question.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 20 2006, 10:50 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,15:43)
Your true colors are to smear me

My true colors are to call BS when I see it.
No, you just cry liar when you can't come up with a logical argument. It's tiresome and juvenile.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,15:43)
because you can't come up with reasonable explanation why Wilson chose to write an editorial instead of go back to the CIA and ask what happened to the report he filed.

Too funny!  Nice try at diversionary tactics again.  Also, nice try to put me on the defense when I don't need to be on the defense.  Give me a reasonable explanation why Plame's name was leaked & I'll answer your question.
Her name wasn't leaked, just her relationship (personal and working) with her husband. She had more to do with Wilson getting the job than Cheney.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 20 2006, 10:55 PM
Her name wasn't leaked, just her relationship (personal and working) with her husband.
You're right - lies are tiresome.  Her position at the CIA was leaked!  It was classified & she had non-official cover.

Everything I've presented is logical.  It's the stuff you present that's mostly inference & mis-interpretation.  I learned that when you presented your interpretation of the Novak article some time ago, which completely wrong.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 20 2006, 11:03 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,15:55)
Her name wasn't leaked, just her relationship (personal and working) with her husband.

You're right - lies are tiresome.  Her position at the CIA was leaked!  It was classified & she had non-official cover.

Everything I've presented is logical.  It's the stuff you present that's mostly inference & mis-interpretation.  I learned that when you presented your interpretation of the Novak article some time ago, which completely wrong.
Nonsense. You're so worried about the right-wing bogeyman you wouldn't recognize truth if it smacked you in the face and obviously it has many times.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 20 2006, 11:03 PM
You're so worried about the right-wing bogeyman you wouldn't recognize truth
You can never prove this statement & you know it.  If there are no right-wing bogeymen, then there is no liberal bias either, so quit your liberal bias in the media rant, because we're tired of hearing it.

One other point.  This distinction between Cheney & the office of Cheney is indeed important.  Any intelligent person reading Wilson's essay could distinquish between Cheney & his office & would not assume that Cheney was directly involved.  However, this thing became a right-wing talking point that Wilson lied about Cheney sending him.  Cheney was even on TV denying that he knew Wilson.  This whole thing was a crock.  Any INTELLIGENT person reading Wilson's op-ed piece would know that Wilson never claimed that Cheney personally sent him on this mission.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 20 2006, 11:30 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,16:03)
You're so worried about the right-wing bogeyman you wouldn't recognize truth

You can never prove this statement & you know it.
I've proved it several times in this thread.

 
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,16:03)
If there are no right-wing bogeymen, then there is no liberal bias either, so quit your liberal bias in the media rant, because we're tired of hearing it.

One is not dependent on the existence of another. The problem is that you keep acting as if there's a right-wing source for my comments about Wilson, and that's absolutely wrong. It's based on his own words and study of other original source material that's been in legitimate (although sometimes liberally biased) media.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,16:03)

One other point.  This distinction between Cheney & the office of Cheney is indeed important.  Any intelligent person reading Wilson's essay could distinquish between Cheney & his office & would not assume that Cheney was directly involved.

No, the reporters obviously didn't understand or else Libby and Rove wouldn't have had to clarify their inquiries. No one likes being accused of doing something they didn't do and that's why they clarified who was responsible for bringing in Wilson.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,16:03)
 However, this thing became a right-wing talking point that Wilson lied about Cheney sending him.

Nonsense. It's based on Wilson's own words. I gave you a direct quote that made it clear as day (btw, that's the time in which the sun is out).

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,16:03)
 Cheney was even on TV denying that he knew Wilson.

Are you saying he did know Wilson??

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,16:03)
 This whole thing was a crock.  Any INTELLIGENT person reading Wilson's op-ed piece would know that Wilson never claimed that Cheney personally sent him on this mission.

One more time for the record:

The vice president's office asked a serious question. I was asked to help formulate the answer.

BTW, was Wilson actually asked to help "formulate the answer" or was he simply asked to bring in a report?? Formulating the answer would imply that he was some sort of an analyst. What an idiot!

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 21 2006, 12:25 AM
One is not dependent on the existence of another.
Correct but they are both examples of bias.

And you've proven nothing except that that you are biased.  It's you who can't spot the truth.

Your comments about Wilson are exactly like right-wing media's talking points about him.  Is that a coincidence?

Wilson's article is very well written.  There's nothing ambigious in it.  I wished I could write as well as he does.  Your claims are about his essay were wrong & illogical.   Wilson's essay starts with a question.  The rest of his essay answers the question.

Did the Bush administration manipulate intelligence about Saddam Hussein's weapons programs to justify an invasion of Iraq?

Many Americans feel this is a valid question.  Many Americans feel that we were "lied" into war.  The proof is pretty obvioius that we were.  Wilson had a right as an American to speak out & he did just that.  If Bush had a solid case for this war, he wouldn't have had to worry about critics.

The Bush admin outed Wilson's wife because they had to smear & discredit Wilson.  It's very clear that's what they did.  Robert Novak's article was the vehicle.

BTW, was Wilson actually asked to help "formulate the answer" or was he simply asked to bring in a report??
This is a perfect example of your mincing simple words to mis-contrue the meaning.  You're the idiot, not Wilson.

You did the same thing with Novak's article, i.e., you spun in such a way that it was almost unbelievable.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 21 2006, 12:48 AM
No surprise that we've discussed this issue before.  I found several prior threads one of which discussed an essay written by W.F. Buckley - < http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley200511011324.asp >.


But the sacredness of the law against betraying a clandestine soldier of the republic cannot be slighted.
ksdb - you never answered my question: do you agree with his concluding statement, which is his main point?   Please answer yes or no.

My guess is that you don't agree because you've already claimed it was OK to leak her status at the CIA.

Posted by StuH on Jun. 21 2006, 9:55 AM
I dig the new avatar Mr. Soul. Would definitely give you 1st place for that.
Posted by ksdb on Jun. 21 2006, 4:27 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,17:48)
No surprise that we've discussed this issue before.  I found several prior threads one of which discussed an essay written by W.F. Buckley - < http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley200511011324.asp >.


But the sacredness of the law against betraying a clandestine soldier of the republic cannot be slighted.

ksdb - you never answered my question: do you agree with his concluding statement, which is his main point?   Please answer yes or no.

My guess is that you don't agree because you've already claimed it was OK to leak her status at the CIA.
It was okay to leak her status because her status was not protected in the state department memo from which Powell, Hadley, Cheney, Libby, Rove and/or anyone else learned about her involvement.
Posted by ksdb on Jun. 21 2006, 4:46 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,17:25)
One is not dependent on the existence of another.

Correct but they are both examples of bias.

And you've proven nothing except that that you are biased.  It's you who can't spot the truth.

Your comments about Wilson are exactly like right-wing media's talking points about him.  Is that a coincidence?
Only if you consider common sense and logic as things that can only happen by coincidence. It's obviously a rarity in your personal life.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,17:25)
Wilson's article is very well written.  There's nothing ambigious in it.  I wished I could write as well as he does.  Your claims are about his essay were wrong & illogical.   Wilson's essay starts with a question.  The rest of his essay answers the question.

No, his essay is misleading and opportunist. He could have answered his own questions by going back to the CIA. Instead he thinks he knows more than they do. He is an idiot and it's no wonder that you're in love with him.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,17:25)
Did the Bush administration manipulate intelligence about Saddam Hussein's weapons programs to justify an invasion of Iraq?

The simple answer is no. The bottom line is that Saddam was given plenty of time to fully comply and Saddam chose not to. It wasn't incumbent on our administration to use former ambassadors to determine whether or not Saddam presented potential dangers to our national security.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,17:25)
Many Americans feel this is a valid question.  Many Americans feel that we were "lied" into war.  

And many Americans feel that taking out Saddam was appropriate and necessary and many Americans feel that the left's accusations of lies are nonsense.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,17:25)
The proof is pretty obvioius that we were.  Wilson had a right as an American to speak out & he did just that.  If Bush had a solid case for this war, he wouldn't have had to worry about critics.

Nonsense. Both FDR and Lincoln had plenty of critics during times of war. A "solid case for war" doesn't insulate a President from criticism. In this case, much of the criticism is kooky nonsense.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,17:25)
The Bush admin outed Wilson's wife because they had to smear & discredit Wilson.  It's very clear that's what they did.  Robert Novak's article was the vehicle.

Nonsense again. You needed a left-wing kook (David Corn) to accuse this of being smear because at the time Novak exposed Plame's nepotism, nobody knew nor cared who she was.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,17:25)
BTW, was Wilson actually asked to help "formulate the answer" or was he simply asked to bring in a report??

This is a perfect example of your mincing simple words to mis-contrue the meaning.  You're the idiot, not Wilson.
Nonsense again. Even the Washington Post admitted this guy was exposed by the Senate Report:

Wilson's assertions -- both about what he found in Niger and what the Bush administration did with the information -- were undermined yesterday in a bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report.

The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts. And contrary to Wilson's assertions and even the government's previous statements, the CIA did not tell the White House it had qualms about the reliability of the Africa intelligence that made its way into 16 fateful words in President Bush's January 2003 State of the Union address.


Quote (Mr Soul @ June 20 2006,17:25)
You did the same thing with Novak's article, i.e., you spun in such a way that it was almost unbelievable.

The only thing that is unbelievable is your refusal to think instead of parrot left-wing talking points. Good parrot.

Posted by clark_griswold on Jun. 21 2006, 5:04 PM
Here ya go Mike...watched this on PBS last night.  They do not disappoint.  Might as well have been directed by Ollie "it was the CIA" Stone or Michael 'I'll cut it to make MY point" Moore.

Yellowcake for everyone!  ;)


< http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/ >

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 21 2006, 6:41 PM
It was okay to leak her status because her status was not protected in the state department memo from which Powell, Hadley, Cheney, Libby, Rove and/or anyone else learned about her involvement.
What are you talking about here?  Assuming that we talking about the same thing you are wrong:

A classified State Department memorandum central to a federal leak investigation contained information about CIA officer Valerie Plame in a paragraph marked "(S)" for secret, a clear indication that any Bush administration official who read it should have been aware the information was classified, according to current and former government officials.

Again you really should contact Fitzgerald & explain to him that he's got the whole thing wrong.  What arrogance you have ksdb!

Only if you consider common sense and logic as things that can only happen by coincidence. It's obviously a rarity in your personal life.
Wrong again Sherlock.  My life is all about logic which is why I'm a software engineer & musician.  If you look at my code & listen to my music, so you will see nothing but logic (and some emotion thrown in).

No, his essay is misleading and opportunist. He could have answered his own questions by going back to the CIA. Instead he thinks he knows more than they do. He is an idiot and it's no wonder that you're in love with him.
That's a matter of opinion - no?  Back to the Ad Hominems again huh - ksdb.

The simple answer is no. The bottom line is that Saddam was given plenty of time to fully comply and Saddam chose not to.
Now it is you that's not using logic.  None of Bush's, Cheney's or Powell's claims were true.  The mobile labs claims were false; the aluminum tubes claim was false; the yellowcake claim was false; Iraq had not real links with Al Quada, etc, etc.  IT WAS ALL LIES & cherry picked information.  Saddam had no real active WMD programs.  Bush wanted to go to war with Iraq on 9/12/2001 - it's well documented.  In fact, his buddies wanted war before that.  We had gotten inspectors back in Iraq & they could have done their job.

You've got the blood of 2,500 US service people & thousands of innocent Iraqi's on your hands, and I do NOT.

And many Americans feel that taking out Saddam was appropriate and necessary and many Americans feel that the left's accusations of lies are nonsense.
Do they now?  You obviously haven't seen every recent poll in which over 50% of Americans think the war in Iraq was a mistake.

Time will tell which one of us is right ksdb.  Will you admit if you are wrong?  I will (if I am).

Nonsense again. Even the Washington Post admitted this guy was exposed by the Senate Report:
Nope and I love your bias against the WP.  The Senate report was clearly biased against Wilson if you read it carefully.  Also the WP didn't get this right.

Wilson addressed everyone of those points in his letter - < http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/feature/2004/07/16/wilson_letter/index.html >.

Second conclusion: "Rather than speaking publicly about his actual experiences during his inquiry of the Niger issue, the former ambassador seems to have included information he learned from press accounts and from his beliefs about how the Intelligence Community would have or should have handled the information he provided."

This conclusion states that I told the committee staff that I "may have become confused about my own recollection after the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) reported that the names and dates on the documents were not correct." At the time that I was asked that question, I was not afforded the opportunity to review the articles to which the staff was referring. I have now done so.

On March 7, 2003, the director general of the IAEA reported to the U.N. Security Council that the documents that had been given to him were "not authentic." His deputy, Jacques Baute, was even more direct, pointing out that the forgeries were so obvious that a quick Google search would have exposed their flaws. A State Department spokesman was quoted the next day as saying about the forgeries, "We fell for it." From that time on the details surrounding the documents became public knowledge and were widely reported. I was not the source of information regarding the forensic analysis of the documents in question; the IAEA was.

The first time I spoke publicly about the Niger issue was in response to the State Department's disclaimer. On CNN a few days later, in response to a question, I replied that I believed the U.S. government knew more about the issue than the State Department spokesman had let on and that he had misspoken. I did not speak of my trip.

My first public statement was in my article of July 6 published in the New York Times, written only after it became apparent that the administration was not going to deal with the Niger question unless it was forced to. I wrote the article because I believed then, and I believe now, that it was important to correct the record on the statement in the president's State of the Union address which lent credence to the charge that Iraq was actively reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. I believed that the record should reflect the facts as the U.S. government had known them for over a year. The contents of my article do not appear in the body of the report and it is not quoted in the "additional comments." In that article, I state clearly that "as for the actual memorandum, I never saw it. But news accounts have pointed out that the documents had glaring errors -- they were signed, for example, by officials who were no longer in government -- and were probably forged. (And then there's the fact that Niger formally denied the charges.)"

The first time I actually saw what were represented as the documents was when Andrea Mitchell, the NBC correspondent, handed them to me in an interview on July 21. I was not wearing my glasses and could not read them. I have to this day not read them. I would have absolutely no reason to claim to have done so. My mission was to look into whether such a transaction took place or could take place. It had not and could not. By definition that makes the documents bogus.

The text of the "additional comments" also asserts that "during Mr. Wilson's media blitz, he appeared on more than thirty television shows including entertainment venues. Time and again, Joe Wilson told anyone who would listen that the President had lied to the American people, that the Vice President had lied, and that he had 'debunked' the claim that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa."

Clarke - the PBS report is correct.  What about it is wrong?

Posted by clark_griswold on Jun. 21 2006, 6:51 PM
never said it was right or wrong, did I?
Posted by ksdb on Jun. 21 2006, 7:02 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,11:41)

What are you talking about here?  I believe this is incorrect.  The Dept. memo was marked Secret if we are talking about the same thing.

The memo was marked secret, but Plame's position wasn't. If she had NOTHING to do with her husband getting the job, she shouldn't have been mentioned in the memo. If Wilson wants to be angry at someone, he should start with the CIA.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,11:41)

Wrong again Sherlock.  My life is all about logic which is why I'm a software engineer & musician.  If you look at my code & listen to my music, so you will see nothing but logic (and some emotion thrown in).

What you show at this site is lots of emotion and practically ZERO logic.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,11:41)

That's a matter of opinion - no?  Back to the Ad Hominems again huh - ksdb.

I've decided to follow your example. You keep using them, so it must be okay.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,11:41)

Now it is you that's not using logic.  None of Bush's, Cheney's or Powell's claims were true.  The mobile labs claims was false; the aluminum tubes claim was false; the yellowcake claim was false; Iraq had not real links with Al Quada, etc, etc.  IT WAS ALL LIES & cherry picked information.  Saddam had no real active WMD programs.  Bush wanted to go to war with Iraq on 9/12/2001 - it's well documented.  In fact, his buddies wanted war before that.  We had gotten inspectors back in Iraq & they could have done their job.

It's also well-documented that many Americans wanted to go to war with Iraq on 9/12/2001. The press mentioned it before the government ever did. And it is well-documented. The claims that you say are false were only confirmed after we took more aggressive action than waiting for inspectors who were being played by Saddam. Hindsight is only 20/20 because we took necessary action.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,11:41)
You've got the blood of 2,500 US service people & thousands of innocent Iraqi's on your hands, and I do NOT.

Lay off the melodrama. The people responsible are terrorists and insurgents who would gladly come to America and cut off your head in spite of your liberalism and pacifivism.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,11:41)

Do they now?  You obviously haven't seen every recent poll in which over 50% of Americans think the war in Iraq was a mistake.

And more than 50 percent are unable to find Iraq on a map. That's not a majority to be proud of or to take sides with. They aren't informed enough to make such judgments.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,11:41)
Time will tell which one of us is right ksdb.  Will you admit if you are wrong?  I will.

You're not showing much evidence that you're willing in this thread.

Posted by phoo on Jun. 21 2006, 7:27 PM
And more than 50 percent are unable to find Iraq on a map. That's not a majority to be proud of or to take sides with. They aren't informed enough to make such judgments.
That sure would explain how many of our current leaders got elected. :)

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 21 2006, 7:29 PM
OK - let's go back to the start & see if we can agree on the basic facts.

The memo was marked secret, but Plame's position wasn't.
Plame's position was classified & she had non-official status.  Do you agree with that?  If not, can you show why don't agree.

If she had NOTHING to do with her husband getting the job, she shouldn't have been mentioned in the memo.
Is this an inference or do you know this for a fact?  I don't think what you are saying is correct.

Plame -- who is referred to by her married name, Valerie Wilson, in the memo -- is mentioned in the second paragraph of the three-page document, which was written on June 10, 2003, by an analyst in the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), according to a source who described the memo to The Washington Post.

The paragraph identifying her as the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV was clearly marked to show that it contained classified material at the "secret" level, two sources said. The CIA classifies as "secret" the names of officers whose identities are covert, according to former senior agency officials.

Anyone reading that paragraph should have been aware that it contained secret information, though that designation was not specifically attached to Plame's name and did not describe her status as covert, the sources said. It is a federal crime, punishable by up to 10 years in prison, for a federal official to knowingly disclose the identity of a covert CIA official if the person knows the government is trying to keep it secret.

That sure would explain how many of our current leaders got elected.
Phoo - you got that one right.  Bush didn't even have 50% in 2000!

never said it was right or wrong, did I? Then why did you bring it up?  Your implications were clear to me.  Everyone who knows you knows your feelings about PBS.

Posted by TomS on Jun. 21 2006, 7:34 PM
Back to the indictment, which jus tmay still exist, here is what MarK Ash has to say about the whole debacle:
< http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2006/6/19/185947/499 >


Returning to "06 cr 128"

By Marc Ash,

Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 07:50:32 PM EDT :: Fitzgerald Investigation


What will follow will be a rather frank discussion of our reporting of and involvement in the Rove indictment matter. If you like simple answers or quick resolutions, turn back now. This is our report to our readership. Our primary sources for this report are career federal law enforcement and federal government officials speaking on condition of anonymity. This report was developed under the supervision of all of Truthout's senior editors, which should be taken as an indication that we view this matter with the utmost seriousness.

For the record, we did reach Kimberly Nerheim, a spokesperson for Patrick Fitzgerald, and asked her these questions: Did a grand jury return an indictment of Karl Rove? Did Patrick Fitzgerald send a fax to Robert Luskin similar to that described in recent press reports? Is Patrick Fitzgerald's probe of the Plame matter still ongoing? Her response to each question was identical: "I have no comment."

The Rove indictment story is way beyond - in terms of complexity - any other story we have ever covered. In essence, we found out something we were not supposed to find out, and things exploded from there. We were not prepared for the backlash.

On Tuesday, June 13, when the mainstream media broke their stories that Karl Rove had been exonerated, there were frank discussions amongst our senior editors about retracting our stories outright. The problem we wrestled with was what exactly do we retract? Should we say that Rove had not in fact been indicted? Should we say that our sources provided us with false or misleading information? Had Truthout been used? Without a public statement from Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald we felt that it was premature to retract our report.

After spending the past month retracing our steps and confirming facts, we've come full circle. Our sources continue to maintain that a grand jury has in fact returned an indictment. Our sources said that parts of the indictment were read to Karl Rove and his attorney on Friday, May 12, 2006. Last week, we pointed to a sealed federal indictment, case number "06 cr 128," which is still sealed and we are still pointing to it. During lengthy conversations with our sources over the past month, they reiterated that the substance of our report on May 13, 2006, was correct, and immediately following our report, Karl Rove's status in the CIA leak probe changed. In summary, as we press our investigation we find indicators that more of our key facts are correct, not less.

That leaves the most important question: If our sources maintain that a grand jury has returned an indictment - and we have pointed to a criminal case number that we are told corresponds to it - then how is it possible that Patrick Fitzgerald is reported to have said that 'he does not anticipate seeking charges against Rove at this time?' That is a very troubling question, and the truth is, we do not yet have a definitive answer. We also continue to be very troubled that no one has seen the reported communication from Fitzgerald to Rove's attorney Robert Luskin, and more importantly, how so much public judgment could be based on a communication that Luskin will not put on the table. Before we can assess the glaring contradiction between what our sources say and what Luskin says Fitzgerald faxed to him, we need to be able to consider what was faxed - and in its entirety.

What appears to have happened is that - and this is where Truthout blundered - in our haste to report the indictment we never considered the possibility that Patrick Fitzgerald would not make an announcement. We simply assumed - and we should not have done so - that he would tell the press. He did not. Fitzgerald appears to have used the indictment, and more importantly, the fear that it would go public, to extract information about the Plame outing case from Rove.

Yes, it does appear that Truthout was used, but not lied to or misled. The facts appear to have been accurate. We reported them, and in so doing, apparently became an instrument. From all indications, our reports, first on May 13 that Rove had been indicted, and then on June 12 when we published case number "06 cr 128," forced Rove and Luskin back to the table with Fitzgerald, not once but twice. They apparently sought to avoid public disclosure and were prepared to do what they had to do to avoid it.

The electronic communication from Fitzgerald to Luskin, coming immediately on the heels of our Monday morning, June 12 article "Sealed vs. Sealed" that became the basis for the mainstream media's de facto exoneration of Karl Rove was, our sources told us, negotiated quickly over the phone later that afternoon. Luskin contacted Fitzgerald, reportedly providing concessions that Fitzgerald considered to be of high value, and Fitzgerald reportedly reciprocated with the political cover Rove wanted in the form of a letter that was faxed to Luskin's office.

Our sources provided us with additional detail, saying that Fitzgerald is apparently examining closely Dick Cheney's role in the Valerie Plame matter, and apparently sought information and evidence from Karl Rove that would provide documentation of Cheney's involvement. Rove apparently was reluctant to cooperate and Fitzgerald, it appears, was pressuring him to do so, our sources told us.

Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald's investigation is a unique chapter in American history. The probe has managed to shed light into the inner recesses of perhaps the most secretive presidential administration in US history. His mission is not political, and he will not allow it to be.

However, we call upon the Special Counsel to consider the right of the American people to know what has happened. Nothing, we believe, is more important to the survival of democracy than the light of justice, and nothing more damaging than the curtain of secrecy that today surrounds the highest office in the land.


Posted by clark_griswold on Jun. 21 2006, 8:00 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,12:29)
never said it was right or wrong, did I?
Then why did you bring it up?  Your implications were clear to me.  Everyone who knows you knows your feelings about PBS.
Mike,

I was commenting on the tone of the direction and writing...nothing more.  Just thought it reeked of PBS.  I think if they did a docu on my toliet sitting habits it would have very much the same tone.


See, I don't KNOW the answers.  I don't PRETEND to know the answers.  And you may be right.  I may be crazy.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 21 2006, 8:05 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,12:29)
OK - let's go back to the start & see if we can agree on the basic facts.

The memo was marked secret, but Plame's position wasn't.

Plame's position was classified & she had non-official status.  Do you agree with that?  If not, can you show why don't agree.
I would agree that Fitzgerald has claimed this was her status, but he would still need to prove that this information was KNOWN by anyone who allegedly leaked her "name." So far, there is NO PROOF OF THIS. AND this is probably why Fitz is only indicting Libby for perjury and has dropped intentions to indict Rove.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,12:29)
If she had NOTHING to do with her husband getting the job, she shouldn't have been mentioned in the memo.

Is this an inference or do you know this for a fact?  I don't think what you are saying is correct.
Unless the memo is released to the public, it's hard to know what the motivation was, but it seems very unnecessary for the CIA or the state department to mention Plame in this memo IF HER IDENTITY NEEDED TO BE PROTECTED.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,12:29)
Plame -- who is referred to by her married name, Valerie Wilson, in the memo -- is mentioned in the second paragraph of the three-page document, which was written on June 10, 2003, by an analyst in the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), according to a source who described the memo to The Washington Post.

The paragraph identifying her as the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV was clearly marked to show that it contained classified material at the "secret" level, two sources said. The CIA classifies as "secret" the names of officers whose identities are covert, according to former senior agency officials.

Anyone reading that paragraph should have been aware that it contained secret information, though that designation was not specifically attached to Plame's name and did not describe her status as covert, the sources said. It is a federal crime, punishable by up to 10 years in prison, for a federal official to knowingly disclose the identity of a covert CIA official if the person knows the government is trying to keep it secret.

Again, I would like to see the memo and not go by third party descriptions, which may not be completely accurate. Wilson claimed his wife had nothing to do with him getting the job, so why was her name in the memo??

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,12:29)
That sure would explain how many of our current leaders got elected.

Phoo - you got that one right.  Bush didn't even have 50% in 2000!
The popular vote is NOT the determinant of who wins the president. Did you not ever take any government classes??

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,12:29)
never said it was right or wrong, did I?
Then why did you bring it up?  Your implications were clear to me.  Everyone who knows you knows your feelings about PBS.
N/A

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 21 2006, 8:08 PM
Quote (TomS @ June 21 2006,12:34)
Back to the indictment, which jus tmay still exist, here is what MarK Ash has to say about the whole debacle:
< http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2006/6/19/185947/499 >

Wasn't truthout the ones who claimed Rove was being indicted weeks ago?? Why are we interested in their speculation??
Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 21 2006, 8:27 PM
You're so full of it that it's a complete WASTE of time debating anything with you.  I knew that you would refute the simple facts.

The fact is that her identity was classified & she had non-official cover.  The fact is that the CIA wouldn't have asked for an investigation if she hadn't.  The fact is that Fitzgerald wouldn't make this stuff up in doing his investigation.

but it seems very unnecessary for the CIA or the state department to mention Plame in this memo IF HER IDENTITY NEEDED TO BE PROTECTED.
You are so full of inferences that you can find your way to the truth.

Again, I would like to see the memo and not go by third party descriptions.
What's the matter ksdb?  You just quoted the WP a few posts back, but now you say they aren't trustworthy.  You can't have it both ways ksdb.

The popular vote is NOT the determinant of who wins the president. Did you not ever take any government classes??
No one said that.  Of course, we know that the President isn't elected by popular vote.  Once again, you are inferring stuff.

I'd love to have a formal debate with you because I'd tear you to shreds.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 21 2006, 8:39 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,13:27)
You're so full of it that it's a complete WASTE of time debating anything with you.  I knew that you would refute the simple facts.

You keep telling me it's a waste of time to debate, yet you keep coming back over and over like you're obsessed with me. You need to be angry with yourself, not me.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,13:27)
The fact is that her identity was classified & she had non-official cover.  The fact is that the CIA wouldn't have asked for an investigation if she hadn't.  The fact is that Fitzgerald wouldn't make this stuff up in doing his investigation.

If it is such a simple and obvious FACT, then why isn't LIBBY BEING CHARGED WITH THE LEAK??

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,13:27)
but it seems very unnecessary for the CIA or the state department to mention Plame in this memo IF HER IDENTITY NEEDED TO BE PROTECTED.

You are so full of inferences that you can find your way to the truth.
You tell us how you're stuck on facts. Explain why Wilson is not a liar when he claims his wife didn't help him get the job and you're own source acknowledges that she did.


Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,13:27)

The popular vote is NOT the determinant of who wins the president. Did you not ever take any government classes??

No one said that.  Of course, we know that the President isn't elected by popular vote.  Once again, you are inferring stuff.
No, you mouthed off about Bush not getting 50 percent of the vote in 2000 as if it had relevance. Stand by your own words instead of dancing.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 21 2006, 8:44 PM
Nope - I'm done wasting time with right-wing wacko's like you.  I gave you one last chance to agree on simple facts & you failed the test of reasonibility.

Just remember - you can't have it both ways.

Posted by TomS on Jun. 21 2006, 9:36 PM
Quote (ksdb @ June 21 2006,13:08)
Quote (TomS @ June 21 2006,12:34)
Back to the indictment, which jus tmay still exist, here is what MarK Ash has to say about the whole debacle:
< http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2006/6/19/185947/499 >

Wasn't truthout the ones who claimed Rove was being indicted weeks ago?? Why are we interested in their speculation??

Yes, they were the folks who reported it, I'm interested b/c I know that they are usually a credible if entirely progressive anti-bush source - they have never printed anything like this that they didn't fully back up.  So I want to see what they make of all of this, and in fact their position is an interesting and possible one: the sealed indictment in the case sealed v. sealed is in fact an indictment of Rove, but action was not taken on it by Fitz for some other reasons.  In any case, all that we know is that Rove's lawyers said Fitz said this - Fitz just keeps saying "no comment."  We've enver been shown any evidence, no letters, nothing - just the lawyer's assertions.  It'd be funny if the sealed indictment was really of Rove.  Anyway, Truthout stands by their sources, and while they are strongly partisan, they are not liars.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 21 2006, 10:27 PM
The Truthout thing is bizarre IMO.

There's are now rumors of a pardon for Libby (after the mid-term elections of course).

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 21 2006, 10:55 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,13:44)
Nope - I'm done wasting time with right-wing wacko's like you.  I gave you one last chance to agree on simple facts & you failed the test of reasonibility.

Just remember - you can't have it both ways.

And Toker concludes (but not really concludes) with yet another ad hominem and a lazy excuse to justify not being able to debate.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 21 2006, 11:10 PM
Nope.  Why debate with someone who says it's night when it's really day?  You are completely wrong about the facts on Valerie Plame's CIA status.  I presented you with the facts & yet you refute them.  And you have presented ZERO facts to defend your position.  Anyone reading these threads can see that you are not a reasonable person.

You also keep confusing why Fitzgerald hasn't charged Libby with outing a CIA agent.  The law is very specific, so no charge in this matter does NOT mean that Plame's status wasn't classified.  Stop confusing this issues.

Which is it ksdb - do you trust the WP or not?  You can't have it both ways now.  Grow up please.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 21 2006, 11:28 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,16:10)
Nope.  Why debate with someone who says it's night when it's really day?

Oversimplification. Another tactic employed by people who can't debate.

 
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,16:10)
You are completely wrong about the facts on Valerie Plame's CIA status.

Her status is only relevant if it was KNOWINGLY leaked. That's what the law says:

knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,16:10)
 I presented you with the facts & yet you refute them.

That's called debating. You need to defend. Since you can't, you lose.

 
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,16:10)
And you have presented ZERO facts to defend your position.

I've quoted several factual sources. Your refusal to acknowledge this is extremely dishonest.

 
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,16:10)
Anyone reading these threads can see that you are not a reasonable person.

Evidence??

 
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,16:10)
Which is it ksdb - do you trust the WP or not?  You can't have it both ways now.
 
Do I trust the WP? Of course not. That's why I read and check other sources. If I have a reason to suspect them of bias or misinformation, I will point it out.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,16:10)
Grow up please.

Why? You can't keep up now.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 21 2006, 11:39 PM
Her status is only relevant if it was KNOWINGLY leaked. That's what the law says:
False.  Her status is her status which was: classified, with non-official cover.  Please prove that her status was not this.  You're the one that needs to do that - so you've lost the debate.

And you can't just say Fitzgerald got that wrong because that's a BS argument.

The law says it's illegal to knowingly out a CIA agent who's status was covert.  But you would of course have to investigate that first before that could be determined.  Fitzgerald's investigation is more than just determining whether or not Plame was covert or not.

Also, the President can request classified information from the CIA anytime he wants.  He & the VP can also de-classify it as we've recently learned.  So your argument about the State Dept. memo is BS also.  Did you actually read the WP article:

< http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072002517.html >.  And it was perfectly valid for Plame's name to be in that memo, so your claim was not based on anything except inference & speculation.

< http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11179719/site/newsweek/ >.

Feb. 13, 2006 issue - Newly released court papers could put holes in the defense of Dick Cheney's former chief of staff, I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, in the Valerie Plame leak case. Lawyers for Libby, and White House allies, have repeatedly questioned whether Plame, the wife of White House critic Joe Wilson, really had covert status when she was outed to the media in July 2003. But special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald found that Plame had indeed done "covert work overseas" on counterproliferation matters in the past five years, and the CIA "was making specific efforts to conceal" her identity, according to newly released portions of a judge's opinion. (A CIA spokesman at the time is quoted as saying Plame was "unlikely" to take further trips overseas, though.) Fitzgerald concluded he could not charge Libby for violating a 1982 law banning the outing of a covert CIA agent; apparently he lacked proof Libby was aware of her covert status when he talked about her three times with New York Times reporter Judith Miller. Fitzgerald did consider charging Libby with violating the so-called Espionage Act, which prohibits the disclosure of "national defense information," the papers show; he ended up indicting Libby for lying about when and from whom he learned about Plame.

Do I trust the WP?
Then why did you cite it one of your posts?  So you trust it when it backs up your claims & you don't trust it when it doesn't.  Too funny  :laugh:

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 21 2006, 11:58 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,16:39)
Her status is only relevant if it was KNOWINGLY leaked. That's what the law says:

False.  Her status is her status which was: classified, with non-official cover.  Please prove that her status was not this.  You're the one that needs to do that - so you've lost the debate.
Her status doesn't matter if it was not KNOWN by the anyone who identified her for getting her husband a job. It's moot.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,16:39)
And you can't just say Fitzgerald got that wrong because that's a BS argument.

He hasn't shown any proof nor has he charged anyone with leaking classified information. What part did he get right??

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,16:39)
The law says it's illegal to knowingly out a CIA agent who's status was covert.  But you would of course have to investigate that first before that could be determined.  Fitzgerald's investigation is more than just determining whether or not Plame was covert or not.

Fitz has enough to indict on perjury and obstruction of justice. He should have MORE THAN ENOUGH to charge Libby for leaking, if this were the case. The fact that he didn't indicates the Fitz is fishing and knows that he can't prove that Libby knew Plame was covert or had NOC status.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,16:39)
Also, the President can request classified information from the CIA anytime he wants.  He & the VP can also de-classify it as we've recently learned.  So your argument about the State Dept. memo is BS also.  Did you actually read the WP article:

< http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072002517.html >.  And it was perfectly valid for Plame's name to be in that memo, so your claim was not based on anything except inference & speculation.

Did YOU read the article???

Anyone reading that paragraph should have been aware that it contained secret information, though that designation was not specifically attached to Plame's name and did not describe her status as covert
Claiming that Libby, Rove, Cheney or Bush knew she was covert is complete and utter speculation.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,16:39)
< http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11179719/site/newsweek/ >.

Thanks for posting the msnbc article. It makes my case for me. I'll requote the part that you apparently overlooked:

Fitzgerald concluded he could not charge Libby for violating a 1982 law banning the outing of a covert CIA agent; apparently he lacked proof Libby was aware of her covert status when he talked about her three times with New York Times reporter Judith Miller.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 22 2006, 12:12 AM
Her status doesn't matter if it was not KNOWN by the anyone who identified her for getting her husband a job. It's moot.
Nice try at diversion.  We need to agree on Plame's status at the CIA.

Should her name have been given out the press by someone in the Bush admin or not?  You claim it was OK but you are wrong.

He hasn't shown any proof nor has he charged anyone with leaking classified information.
So you are claiming that Fitzgerald is lying when he says that Plame's identity was classified?

The fact that he didn't indicates the Fitz is fishing and knows that he can't prove that Libby knew Plame was covert or had NOC status.
Fitzgerald could NOT have started his investigation if Plame's status wasn't classified or NOC.  Why are you so dense about this?

So based on your comments, Ken Star was just fishing for information for years with Clinton also - correct?

Thanks for posting the msnbc article. It makes my case for me.
You're welcome.  So you accept the msnbc article saying that Plame's identity was covert?  Boy that was too easy.

Claiming that Libby, Rove, Cheney or Bush knew she was covert is complete and utter speculation
Another BS statement.  The article never made this claim.

Fitzgerald's case against Libby is just as he said in his press release, i.e., it's about getting at the truth.  If Libby didn't know that Plame's identity was covert, then he cannot be charged for that.

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 22 2006, 12:22 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,17:12)
Her status doesn't matter if it was not KNOWN by the anyone who identified her for getting her husband a job. It's moot.

Nice try at diversion.  We need to agree on Plame's status at the CIA.
It's not diversion. It's the law. You want someone charged with leaking, then a law has to be cited. None apply.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,17:12)
Should her name have been given out the press by someone in the Bush admin or not?  You claim it was OK but you are wrong.

Then why isn't ANYONE being charged with leaking her name??

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,17:12)
He hasn't shown any proof nor has he charged anyone with leaking classified information.

So you are claiming that Fitzgerald is lying when he says that Plame's identity was classified?
Focus. Who is being charged with leaking classified information?? Nobody.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,17:12)
The fact that he didn't indicates the Fitz is fishing and knows that he can't prove that Libby knew Plame was covert or had NOC status.

Fitzgerald could NOT have started his investigation if Plame's status wasn't classified or NOC.
And then he has to determine that the status was known by any person(s) who revealed her name.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,17:12)
 Why are you so dense about this?

This question is better directed at yourself. You're stuck on moot details.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,17:12)

So based on your comments, Ken Star was just fishing for information for years with Clinton also - correct?

Irrelevant. Focus. We're not talking about Clinton. We're not talking about Starr. Those activities do not have a bearing on the current case.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,17:12)
Thanks for posting the msnbc article. It makes my case for me.

You're welcome.  So you accept the msnbc article saying that Plame's identity was covert?  Boy that was too easy.
Not really. The sources aren't identified nor are there employment records to corroborate these unidentified sources.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,17:12)
Claiming that Libby, Rove, Cheney or Bush knew she was covert is complete and utter speculation

Another BS statement.  The article never made this claim.
Nor was the comment directed at the article. It was directed at you. Focus.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,17:12)
Fitzgerald's case against Libby is just as he said in his press release, i.e., it's about getting at the truth.

No. That's what an investigation is for. You don't charge people with perjury to find out the truth. You charge them with perjury because they lied and deserve to be prosecuted for it.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,17:12)
 If Libby didn't know that Plame's identity was covert, then he cannot be charged for that.

And he isn't. Seems cut and dried. Fitz has been more concerned with finding evidence to convict Libby on the perjury charges.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 22 2006, 12:27 AM
What was Plame's status at the CIA?  Answer the question.  Was it classified or not? Did she have non-official cover or not.  Afraid to answer?
Posted by ksdb on Jun. 22 2006, 12:31 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,17:27)
What was Plame's status at the CIA?  Answer the question.  Was it classified or not? Did she have non-official cover or not.  Afraid to answer?

Show me her employment records and I'll give you a straight answer. No third-party, unidentified sources and no claims from prosecutors on fishing expeditions.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 22 2006, 12:39 AM
Show me her employment records and I'll give you a straight answer. No third-party, unidentified sources and no claims from prosecutors on fishing expeditions.
Nice - ksdb.  You know I can't provide that information which is exactly why you ask for it.

I've shown you two articles - isn't that enough?  How could the CIA ask for an investigation if she was not classified?

Again - are you claiming Fitzgerald lied about her status?  Please answer: yes or no?

Posted by ksdb on Jun. 22 2006, 12:56 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,17:39)
Show me her employment records and I'll give you a straight answer. No third-party, unidentified sources and no claims from prosecutors on fishing expeditions.

Nice - ksdb.  You know I can't provide that information which is exactly why you ask for it.

I've shown you two articles - isn't that enough?  How could the CIA ask for an investigation if she was not classified?

Again - are you claiming Fitzgerald lied about her status?  Please answer: yes or no?
We don't know that the CIA requested an investigation because Plame was or wasn't classified. The request itself was classified, but that's a different matter. They may have been concerned about how information got out and not whom was allegedly compromised. Technically, they were the source of the leak by providing documentation to the state department and needlessly mention Plame (unless she had a bigger role than anyone wants to admit). Second, ask yourself why Fitz hasn't simply released Plame's employment records. Let's see some proof of the claims.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 22 2006, 12:59 AM
You know ksdb - we don't know nothing now do we?  You've plume worn me out - hats out to ya'!
Posted by teryeah on Jun. 22 2006, 1:25 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,17:59)
You know ksdb - we don't know nothing now do we?  You've plume worn me out - hats out to ya'!

It was about f*cking time!!!

Despite my earlier claims a new low has been reached - THIS must be be the stupidest thread EVER (for now...)

Posted by Mr Soul on Jun. 22 2006, 1:46 AM
Well at least it doesn't have 83 pages in it.
Posted by teryeah on Jun. 22 2006, 2:05 AM
It's not your or ksdb's fault!
Posted by DrGuitar on Jun. 22 2006, 4:21 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 21 2006,18:46)
Well at least it doesn't have 83 pages in it.

Hey, I represent that remark...  :)

The 84 page thread is about longevity.  It is about a thread to throw BS into.  It is about integrity and honesty...  aww, who am I kidding. It is about trying to reach 100 useless pages in one thread.  So if you are going to go on mindlessly (and I know something about mindless posts), please move to the 84 page thread.

(place Battle Hymn of the Republic music here)

It is the thread to grow on.  It is the thread where dreams are made.  It is the reason for liberty and justice for all.  It is "stay the course" and "a thousand points of light" and "ask not what your country can do for you..." and "watch the teeth Monica".  It is all those things and more... much more.

So when you are feeling like you have a real tussle ahead in your posts, move to the big one; the 84+ page thread.  Cause it is good for N-Track,  it is good for recording engineers everywhere and it is good for America.

Thank you ladies and gentlemen, God bless you and good night...

:D

Posted by Diogenes on Jun. 22 2006, 6:30 PM
Heh... most excellent "State of the Forum Address" there Doc! You should run for office... nah... I have a theory. The instant a person is elected to office their basic molecular structure goes through a subtle quantum shift which unfortunately, disables logical thought processes in the brain.

Run for office at your own risk!

D

Posted by phoo on Jun. 22 2006, 6:58 PM
Mr. Douglas would be proud, Dr. :D
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 12 2006, 6:35 PM
< http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=15988 >.

Novak has some interesting things to say but still doesn't name his primary source.

I considered his wife's role in initiating Wilson's mission, later confirmed by the Senate Intelligence Committee, to be a previously undisclosed part of an important news story. I reported it on that basis.
Of course, Novak considers this important because that's how they tried to discredit Wilson.  The Senate Intelligence didn't really confirm his wife's role, so he's not really being truthful about that.   Even though Wilson had done work for the CIA previously, somehow his wife mentioning his name for the mission to Niger was wrong or that it tainted his abilities.  Smear at it's best.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 13 2006, 2:36 AM
Well now we know it was indeed Rove that leaked Plame's name to Novak & the other reporters, we can only dream of the image below, because it doesn't appear that Rove will get indicted after all
Posted by clark_griswold on Jul. 13 2006, 3:06 AM
"I have a dream..."

jesus.  YOUR wet dream, yes.  I think you alone.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 13 2006, 3:09 AM
We also learned that Rovak lied to us about Harlow:

Harlow, the former CIA spokesman, said in an interview yesterday that he testified last year before a grand jury about conversations he had with Novak at least three days before the column was published.  He said he warned Novak, in the strongest terms he was permitted to use without revealing classified information, that Wilson's wife had not authorized the mission and that if he did write about it, her name should not be revealed.

Harlow said that after Novak's call, he checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative.  He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used.  But he did not tell Novak directly that she was undercover because that was classified.

Posted by clark_griswold on Jul. 13 2006, 3:20 AM
and yet the world turns...
Posted by ksdb on Jul. 13 2006, 4:53 PM
Ask yourself why Harlow would talk to the media AT ALL to confirm the identity of agent who is covert or classified. She had cover, did she not?? All Harlow had to do was deny that she worked for the CIA and the story never gets published.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 13 2006, 6:44 PM
All Harlow had to do was deny that she worked for the CIA and the story never gets published.
That's such a Bullsh*t statement, that it's not even worth commenting on.

Once again you demonstrate your blindness to the facts Brent.  Harlow gave an interview AFTER he spoke to a grand jury.  Harlow spoke AFTER Plame's identity had be blown.

Plame had non-official cover which means that if she had been caught, the CIA would disavow that they knew her.

and yet the world turns...
If Clinton or a Democrat had outed a CIA agent, you would be screaming bloody murder.  You constantly bring up Clinton & his failings, so I know that you are a partisan.

From the WP:
Harlow said that after Novak's call, he checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative. He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used. But he did not tell Novak directly that she was undercover because that was classified.

So Brent & Clark can believe what they want but the facts are clear - Plame was a CIA operative with non-official cover.

Harlow told Novak not to reveal Plame's name - from Novak's The CIA Leak:
At the CIA, the official designated to talk to me denied that Wilson's wife had inspired his selection, but said she was delegated to request his help. He asked me not to use her name, saying she probably never again will be given a foreign assignment but that exposure of her name might cause "difficulties" if she travels abroad. He never suggested to me that Wilson's wife or anybody else would be endangered. If he had, I would not have used her name.
Novak plays all innocent but he knew what he was doing.  Any reasonable person would have interpreted Harlow's remarks as serious.

Novak then later justifies naming Plame because of:
Her name, Valerie Plame, was no secret either, appearing in Wilson's "Who's Who in America" entry.
This is about as dishonest a statement as I've ever heard.

The fact is that Novak & Rove are traitors.  They knowingly outed a CIA agent & they will get away with it because Fitzgerald can't get them on it because the federal law is too restrictive.  So the next best thing is to get them on perjury & lying.  Unfortunately, he can't get Rove who was really the one at fault.

Posted by clark_griswold on Jul. 13 2006, 6:53 PM
Mike,

Please don't think I CARE about the outcome of this nonsense, not even a little...I am simply having fun with the absurdity of WISHING someones downfall.  it's comical to me.  I couldn't give two shits about Plame, Wilson, Novak or Rove.  they, at best, are on the most outside periphery of my day to day life.

I only bring up Clintons failings as they were central to my first bout with CNN and the constant "news" cycle.  I wasn't around for Nixon and I was barley born for Iran Contra.  Bubba be all I know.




Thanks,
C

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 13 2006, 6:56 PM
Oh I realize that you don't care about anything, except making money & living in your gated community.
Posted by clark_griswold on Jul. 13 2006, 6:57 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,11:56)
Oh I realize that you don't care about anything, except making money & living in your gated community.

finally, accurate analysis from the Toker!


*wishing I lived in a gated community instread of here!  http://waconiapatriot.com/articles/2006/07/13/waconia_patriot/news/news03.txt*

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 13 2006, 7:01 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,11:44)
That's such a Bullsh*t statement, that it's not even worth commenting on.

Yet, you do anyway.  :O  

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,11:44)
Once again you demonstrate your blindness to the facts Brent.  Harlow gave an interview AFTER he spoke to a grand jury.  Harlow spoke AFTER Plame's identity had be blown.

I'm talking about when he spoke to Novak.

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,11:44)
Plame had non-official cover which means that if she had been caught, the CIA would disavow that they knew her.

Then why didn't Harlow DISAVOW??

 
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,11:44)
If Clinton or a Democrat had done this, you would be screaming bloody murder.

Nonsense. IFP Clinton got himself in trouble for plenty of other things. Leave out your pointless speculation.

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,11:44)
From the WP:
Harlow said that after Novak's call, he checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative. He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used. But he did not tell Novak directly that she was undercover because that was classified.


So Brent & Clark can believe what they want but the facts are clear - Plame was a CIA operative with non-official cover.
Why didn't Harlow deny she worked for the CIA when she allegedly had cover?? There was no reason for him to talk to Novak about her at all.

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,11:44)
Harlow told Novak not to reveal Plame's name - from Novak's The CIA Leak:
At the CIA, the official designated to talk to me denied that Wilson's wife had inspired his selection, but said she was delegated to request his help. He asked me not to use her name, saying she probably never again will be given a foreign assignment but that exposure of her name might cause "difficulties" if she travels abroad. He never suggested to me that Wilson's wife or anybody else would be endangered. If he had, I would not have used her name.

Novak plays all innocent but he knew what he was doing.  Any reasonable person would have interpreted Harlow's remarks as serious.
Since when is the media beholden to government requests not to publish information?? Do you not want a free press??
If Harlow knew his business, he wouldn't have been talking to Novak at all.

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,11:44)
Novak then later justifies naming Plame because of:
Her name, Valerie Plame, was no secret either, appearing in Wilson's "Who's Who in America" entry.

This is about as dishonest a statement as I've ever heard.
Oh really??



Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,11:44)
The fact is that Novak & Rove are traitors.  They knowingly outed a CIA agent & they will get away with it because Fitzgerald can't get them on it but the federal law is too restrictive.

We don't have proof that Rove knew Plame was an agent and Novak, as a member of the free press, got confirmation from a source (Harlow) who shouldn't have given him any information. Harlow needs to be indicted.

And BTW, please refer to me as ksdb online. My name isn't Brent and there's no point in having a userid if it won't be respected. If I wanted to register by real name, I would have done so.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 13 2006, 7:08 PM
Why don't you ask Harlow that question?

Once again, you are so off-based suggesting that Harlow be indicted, that it's hardly worth discussing this with you.

When I said dishonest, I mean intectually dishonest.  Novak used the Who's Who's as one of his lame justifications about printing Plame's name.

So you don't see Novak as having any responsibility in this at all?  Yes or no.

I agree that we don't have enough to convict Rove on the federal law; If we had, Fitzgerald would have indicted him.

However, Rove did know that she was a CIA agent however because he had access to a memo where her status as secret.  He knew enough about to her to know that he should have kept his mouth shut.  Novak knew enough not to print his article.

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 13 2006, 7:24 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,12:08)
Why don't you ask Harlow that question?

I'd like to. So far, it sounds like doesn't understand his job.

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,12:08)
Once again, you are so off-based suggesting that Harlow be indicted, that it's hardly worth discussing this with you.

Yet you don't seem to be able to stop, so why do you keep making these lame statements??

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,12:08)
When I said dishonest, I mean intectually dishonest.  Novak used the Who's Who's as one of his lame justifications about printing Plame's name.

It WAS ALREADY PRINTED.

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,12:08)
So you don't see Novak as having any responsibility in this at all?  Yes or no.

Responsibility for what?? He obviously wrote a story that exposed a hack and that seems highly appropriate.

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,12:08)
I agree that we don't have enough to convict Rove on the federal law; If we had, Fitzgerald would have indicted him.

Yawww ...

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,12:08)
However, Rove did know that she was a CIA agent however because he had access to a memo where her status as secret.  He knew enough about to her to know that he should have kept his mouth shut.

I'd like to see if the memo claims her status needed to be secret. Why was she even mentioned in the memo in the first place? Supposedly she had a negligent role in the mission.

 
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,12:08)
Novak knew enough not to print his article.

No, he received the confirmation he needed to go public. Had Harlow not spoken to Novak, the story would have been dead.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 13 2006, 7:55 PM
Harlow was not at fault & you are an idiot for even suggesting that.  End of discussion.
Posted by ksdb on Jul. 13 2006, 8:00 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,12:55)
Harlow was not at fault & you are an idiot for even suggesting that.  End of discussion.

I've worked in public relations and if I speak to the press about things I don't have business talking about, I'm the one who's held responsible, not the media. Nice to see that you resort to namecalling when you know absolutely nothing about the subject.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 13 2006, 8:15 PM
And in your typical arrogant style, you claim to be an expert at everything.  Harlow was a CIA spokesman, so I'm sure he was also trained in PR.

I do really think that you are an idiot or ignorant or both.

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 13 2006, 8:25 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,13:15)
And in your typical arrogant style, you claim to be an expert at everything.  Harlow was a CIA spokesman, so I'm sure he was also trained in PR.

Excuse me for having an education and being able to recognize incompetence. Do you honestly think that a P.R. person for the CIA should talk to reporters about the identities of sensitive agents and expect the media not to print confirmed names just because he asked them not to?? How did Harlow know he was really talking to a reporter and not a spy from another country??

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,13:15)
I do really think that you are an idiot or ignorant or both.

This says much more about you than it does me. Such namecalling is typical from those who can't argue or deal with the facts.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 13 2006, 8:49 PM
Seriously - you are so far out there, that I wonder sometimes.

I have very intense discussions with a guy named John Wheaton (on alt.guitar.amps), who claims to have an IQ of 152 (and probably does).  He's a Libertarian & pretty conservative, and we often disagree, like you & I do, but he rarely makes outrageous statements like you do, and when he does, it's easy to see where he's coming from.  With you, it's almost impossible.

For example, this statement:
How did Harlow know he was really talking to a reporter and not a spy from another country??
is just ridiculous but yet you probably think it's valid.

And your other statements about Harlow are also almost as ridiculous, or ignorant of the facts.

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 13 2006, 9:46 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,13:49)
Seriously - you are so far out there, that I wonder sometimes.

I have very intense discussions with a guy named John Wheaton (on alt.guitar.amps), who claims to have an IQ of 152 (and probably does).  He's a Libertarian & pretty conservative, and we often disagree, like you & I do, but he rarely makes outrageous statements like you do, and when he does, it's easy to see where he's coming from.  With you, it's almost impossible.

For example, this statement:
How did Harlow know he was really talking to a reporter and not a spy from another country??

is just ridiculous but yet you probably think it's valid.

And your other statements about Harlow are also almost as ridiculous, or ignorant of the facts.
Just for your benefit, a statement ends in a period, not a question mark. Maybe if you start thinking in the right terms, you won't have so much difficulty having a simple discussion.

If you can't handle it here, maybe you should stay at alt.guitar.amps and pester your buddy John Wheaton.  :laugh:

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 13 2006, 10:21 PM
Same to you Mr. Durgen.
Posted by TomS on Jul. 13 2006, 10:45 PM
Mike, you are forgetting - there is still the sealed indictment in the case of Sealed v Sealed, and if it isn't for Rove I will eat my hat.  We many never see it if Fitz got what he wanted from Rove - pressure of the threat perhaps explains Rove's many repeated visits.  History will tell, although I'd rather know sooner than later.  :)
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 13 2006, 11:09 PM
I don't know what to make of Sealed v Sealed?
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 13 2006, 11:11 PM
Hot news - < http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13845613/ >.
Posted by TomS on Jul. 13 2006, 11:19 PM
Sealed v Sealed is the name of the case connected to the indictment, which is, of course, still sealed.  :)

I'm telling you, it has to be Rove's - at least with my limited knoweldge gleaned only from outside the process, I'd put my money on it.  It may stay sealed forever, unless Fitz asks for it to go forward.

Posted by TomS on Jul. 13 2006, 11:20 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2006,16:11)
Hot news - < http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13845613/ >.

Ah, mike, you brighten my otherwise miserable day.  Thank you!  :D
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 13 2006, 11:25 PM
Glad I can be of assistance  :laugh:

What the h*ll good is a sealed indictment if it's never opened???  Why would that be done?  This first Bin Laden indictment was sealed too (I believe) but they revealed the contents eventually (or they can up with another indictment).

Posted by TomS on Jul. 13 2006, 11:30 PM
Speculation: Fitz used it to pressure Rove - again, think of all of those visits Rove made to Fitz's offices...
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 13 2006, 11:35 PM
Could it be an indictment against Cheney & they aren't going to open it until he's out of office?  It's indeed very strange.
Posted by TomS on Jul. 14 2006, 1:30 AM
Well, Perhaps.  Yes, it is all very strange.  The thing to remember is that Fitz has a great deal of integrity and works very carefully.  Whatever he does, one can be assured that it is exactly what is justified and called for given the relevant laws.  I think Rove is a danger to democracy, but if in the end no charges are brought against him, I am confident that it will have been the proper outcome legally.  But I sure would like to see all of them out of office.  

Incidentally, notice how "diplomatic" Bush 2 has been lately?  Ooohh, they are worried about the midterms.

Posted by clark_griswold on Jul. 14 2006, 4:30 PM
Litigation AND a book...

wow, she hit the homerun.  we're happy for her.

Meanwhile, Plame has agreed to write her memoirs for Simon & Schuster, weeks after a reported seven-figure deal with the Crown Publishing Group fell through.

“It will be a very interesting book by a key figure of our time,” Simon & Schuster spokesman Adam Rothberg said Thursday.

Financial terms were not disclosed and no publication date has been set. In early May, Crown announced that it would publish Plame’s book, but the two sides could not agree on a final contract.[I]

Posted by TomS on Jul. 14 2006, 5:42 PM
Hey, I'd write the book and make some money too.  That's capitalism, innnit?  
:)

Perhaps she will be donating the profits - or perhaps she needs the money now that she has been forced into a career change.  In any case it's always good to hear what everyone has to say about things like this.  Think of all the books by folks involved in watergate.  All valuable in one way or another.

Posted by clark_griswold on Jul. 14 2006, 5:46 PM
Indeed it is.
Posted by Diogenes on Jul. 14 2006, 7:24 PM
“It will be a very interesting book by a key figure of our time,”

Laying the hype on kinda thick there aren't they? "Key figure"  ???

D

Posted by clark_griswold on Jul. 14 2006, 7:26 PM
maybe she has a "key figure?"  I dunno, never seen her.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 14 2006, 9:05 PM
I just listened to their (Wilson & Plame) press conference.  It's SOooo refreshing to hear someone as articulate & intelligent as Joe Wilson, speak.  Unlike some other public speaker that we have to listen to a lot.
Posted by clark_griswold on Jul. 14 2006, 11:09 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 14 2006,14:05)
I just listened to their (Wilson & Plame) press conference.  It's SOooo refreshing to hear someone as articulate & intelligent as Joe Wilson, speak.  Unlike some other public speaker that we have to listen to a lot.

Kayne West?
Posted by Diogenes on Jul. 14 2006, 11:33 PM
Quote (clark_griswold @ July 14 2006,16:09)
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 14 2006,14:05)
I just listened to their (Wilson & Plame) press conference.  It's SOooo refreshing to hear someone as articulate & intelligent as Joe Wilson, speak.  Unlike some other public speaker that we have to listen to a lot.

Kayne West?

:D  :D  :D
Posted by phoo on Jul. 14 2006, 11:58 PM
Good one Mr G. :)
Posted by KingFish on Jul. 15 2006, 1:40 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 14 2006,01:05)
<snip>   It's SOooo refreshing to hear someone as articulate & intelligent as Joe Wilson, speak.   Unlike some other public speaker that we have to listen to a lot.

Tony Snow

Tony Snow: It's Important Israel Tries To "Limit As Much As Possible The So-Called Collateral Damage, Not Only On Civilians But Also On Human Lives" ...

KF

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 15 2006, 8:32 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 14 2006,14:05)
I just listened to their (Wilson & Plame) press conference.  It's SOooo refreshing to hear someone as articulate & intelligent as Joe Wilson, speak.  Unlike some other public speaker that we have to listen to a lot.

Interesting because these people are claiming in the lawsuit that their freedom of speech was violated. What tha?? How exactly have these media whores had their freedom of speech obstructed when Wilson appears on every talk show that will have him and after he and Plame graced the cover of Vanity Fair. What a crock.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 17 2006, 7:15 AM
Media whores now - aren't we being a little harsh Brent?
Posted by ksdb on Jul. 17 2006, 7:45 AM
Who's Brent??
Posted by Brent on Jul. 17 2006, 8:00 AM
Who's on First.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 17 2006, 6:32 PM
Who's Brent??
So you reference a song by Brent Dungan & you don't even know who he is?  Why didn't you deny that you were Brent Bungan in the previous post.  Actually, you are Joe Montgomery - correct?

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 17 2006, 7:05 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 17 2006,11:32)
ksdb - so are you denying that you are Brent Dungan?  You didn't deny it before in the previoius post, so who can tell whether you're telling the truth.  Either you are Brent Dungan or he's your friend, and your name is Joel.  Which is it?

I'm not Brent. Spare yourself further embarrassment and just address me as ksdb. There's no point in having a userid if it's not going to be used.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 17 2006, 8:14 PM
Embarassment?  Deny that you are Joe Montgomery.
Posted by ksdb on Jul. 17 2006, 8:22 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 17 2006,13:14)
Embarassment?  Deny that you are Joe Montgomery.

ksdb is all you get
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 17 2006, 8:33 PM
No problem Joe - I know that's your real name.  But who's Brent Dungan?  You record one of his songs but you don't know who he is?
Posted by ksdb on Jul. 17 2006, 8:37 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 17 2006,13:33)
No problem Joe - I know that's your real name.  But who's Brent Dungan?  You record one of his songs but you don't know who he is?

My name is Mike Cressey and I'm obsessed with Joe Montgomery and Brent Dungan. I've had 15 usernames because I can't remember which one is current. I use fake, short-term userid's so I can make fun of other posters, but I'm really obsessed with Brent Dungan and Joe Montgomery, even though I don't know who they are.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 17 2006, 9:10 PM
That's correct - my name is Mike Cressey & I have not had 15 user names.  What's your real name?  Are you afraid to tell?
Posted by ksdb on Jul. 17 2006, 9:39 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 17 2006,14:10)
That's correct - my name is Mike Cressey & I have not had 15 user names.  What's your real name?  Are you afraid to tell?

Your name is Brent and MY name is Mike Cressey. Admit it Brent, you're just trying to get people to buy your CD.
Posted by TomS on Jul. 17 2006, 10:10 PM
Um...Mike...does it matter who ksdb is according to his birth records?  You and I don't care if folks here know who we are, but ksdb seems to care.  Isn't there some unwritten rule that mostly we don't look this stuff up?  Unless we feel threatened or something?  Just curious...you guys were having such a nice fight there, and then this Brent Joseph Montgomery Dungun fellow came up.      

#### it's hot here.  And I'm running out of percodan.  :)

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 17 2006, 10:28 PM
Your name is Brent and MY name is Mike Cressey. Admit it Brent, you're just trying to get people to buy your CD
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together!

As far as I know, there are few unwritten rules about anything anymore.  I wanted to find out who the person was who I arguing with & I found it.  He's a right-winger from Kansas named Joe.  If he's uncomfortable with that, then he should go to a moderated forum like audiominds.

Be careful of the percodan - I got a slight addiction to it when I had my wisdom teeth out.  I developed dry sockets which are extremely painful.

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 17 2006, 10:38 PM
My name is Mike Cressey and I can't handle repeatedly losing arguments to right-wingers. I hate it because they are smarter than me, so I call them names. Then when that doesn't make them leave, I start snooping to find personal info that I can use in awkward moments to derail and deflect arguments. Ultimately I hate right-wingers and don't want them posting at the n-Track forum because I started this forum and it belongs to me. Only my left-wing friends are welcome, because they believe in the same nutty conspiracies that I believe in. And even if my left-wing friends tell me I'm being irrational, I'm going to justify my behavior by any means necessary.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 17 2006, 10:41 PM
Blah, blah, blah.  Hey Joe - is American Debt Sales slow today???
Posted by ksdb on Jul. 17 2006, 10:44 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 17 2006,15:41)
Blah, blah, blah.  Hey Joe - is American Debt Sales slow today???

My name is Mike and I don't work at American Debt Sales. I have to scare right-wingers away from MY forum.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 17 2006, 10:46 PM
I have to scare right-wingers away from MY forum.
Oh boy - are you really scared????  :angry:  :laugh:

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 17 2006, 10:47 PM
Just the last time I looked at the Music is Love Web site.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 17 2006, 10:50 PM
Oh boy - you visited my web site.  :D

Hey ksdb - do you support PBS?  It's funny that you should pick a public radio station as your moniker when you don't even support PBS.  :laugh:

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 17 2006, 10:52 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 17 2006,15:50)
Oh boy - you visited my web site.  :D

Hey ksdb - do you support PBS?  It's funny that you should pick a public radio station as your moniker when you don't even support PBS.  :laugh:

Maybe it's why I don't support PBS. I have insider information. Or maybe you need to research the KSDB Web site and find out if I'm a current employee and see what my real name is.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 17 2006, 10:57 PM
Hey ksdb - right-wingers are some of my best friends!
Posted by ksdb on Jul. 17 2006, 11:01 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 17 2006,15:57)
Hey ksdb - right-wingers are some of my best friends!

They must be compassionate conservatives.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 17 2006, 11:40 PM
Now that's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.  :laugh:

One of my oldest friends is a right-winger.  He used to claim that he was a fiscal conservaive & a social liberal, but he's about as right as they come (getting more conservative everday).  Any "real" compassionate conservative is labelled a Rhino nowadays.

Posted by TomS on Jul. 18 2006, 3:28 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 17 2006,15:28)
Your name is Brent and MY name is Mike Cressey. Admit it Brent, you're just trying to get people to buy your CD

I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together!

As far as I know, there are few unwritten rules about anything anymore.  I wanted to find out who the person was who I arguing with & I found it.  He's a right-winger from Kansas named Joe.  If he's uncomfortable with that, then he should go to a moderated forum like audiominds.

Be careful of the percodan - I got a slight addiction to it when I had my wisdom teeth out.  I developed dry sockets which are extremely painful.
Huh - I thought Kansas was a mythical place - like the Jayhawk is a mythical beast - didn't know folks actually lived there.  

OK, out with the percodan - truth is, I'm feeling much better, and don't seem to need it.  Tylenol seems to do the trick just fine.  I have a #### of a good oral surgeon.

:)

Posted by phoo on Jul. 18 2006, 3:43 AM
No, Kansas is the New Monkey Trial Place and home of The Westboro Baptist Church.

"In three days of testimony in Kansas, witnesses painted a picture of evolutionary biology as a tyrannical discipline that can be salvaged only by admitting the bright light of the supernatural."

No wonder things seem different to people there....of course real people don't live in Kansas.

Posted by seamus on Jul. 18 2006, 4:21 AM
I'm not racist some of my best friends are black........
Posted by KingFish on Jul. 18 2006, 6:45 AM
I'm not racist some of my best friends are white........

.....and Jewish to boot!

KF

Posted by KingFish on Jul. 18 2006, 6:47 AM
Quote (phoo @ July 17 2006,07:43)
No, Kansas is the New Monkey Trial Place and home of The Westboro Baptist Church.

"In three days of testimony in Kansas, witnesses painted a picture of evolutionary biology as a tyrannical discipline that can be salvaged only by admitting the bright light of the supernatural."

No wonder things seem different to people there....of course real people don't live in Kansas.

Real people do not live in Kansas.

Repeat this three time while clicking your shoes and maybe they'll go away.

KingFish

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 18 2006, 5:43 PM
Evidently people here abuse percodan. Someone call 911.
Posted by DrGuitar on Jul. 18 2006, 8:23 PM
Quote (ksdb @ July 18 2006,10:43)
Evidently people here abuse percodan. Someone call 911.

Why, are you Rush Limbaugh?   :)
Posted by ksdb on Jul. 18 2006, 8:34 PM
Hallcucinating DrG?
Posted by TomS on Jul. 18 2006, 11:17 PM
Quote (ksdb @ July 18 2006,10:43)
Evidently people here abuse percodan. Someone call 911.

That depends on what the meaning of "abuse" is.  

And at least one of the new monkey trials was in  Pennsylvania.  :)

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 19 2006, 2:31 AM
Yeah, don't you just hate it when people want to study more than the scientific establishment will allow.
Posted by TomS on Jul. 19 2006, 2:39 AM
"The" scientific establishment (whatever that is) will let anyone study anything they want to study, and even give them plenty of opportunities to make their case.  In what way has "the" scientific establishment stopped anyone from presenting evidence for anything?

On the other hand, various religious organizations have throughout the centuries attacked good science and prevented it from going forward.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 19 2006, 3:13 AM
On the other hand, various religious organizations have throughout the centuries attacked good science and prevented it from going forward.

Very true, but ksdb won't admit to that.  ksdb is a whiner, who likes to complain & make things up, like his claim about the scientific establishment.  That's ksdb's boogey man, isn't it?

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 19 2006, 8:03 AM
Quote (TomS @ July 18 2006,19:39)
"The" scientific establishment (whatever that is) will let anyone study anything they want to study, and even give them plenty of opportunities to make their case.  In what way has "the" scientific establishment stopped anyone from presenting evidence for anything?

Peer-review, tenure and groupthink can serve to leverage conformity or have a strong chilling effect. Certain organizations, such as those promoting agendas like global warming, go out of their way to attack, demonize or marginalize opposing research and views.

Quote (TomS @ July 18 2006,19:39)
On the other hand, various religious organizations have throughout the centuries attacked good science and prevented it from going forward.

In some cases there are legitimate ethical concerns and a strong need for caution. Casting it as good science versus religion isn't particularly accurate nor is it very constructive.

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 19 2006, 8:05 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 18 2006,20:13)
On the other hand, various religious organizations have throughout the centuries attacked good science and prevented it from going forward.

Very true, but ksdb won't admit to that.  ksdb is a whiner, who likes to complain & make things up, like his claim about the scientific establishment.  That's ksdb's boogey man, isn't it?
A) You're not good at predicting my responses

B) You're a terrible judge of character

and

C) You almost always come across as behaving in the way that you project onto me

Try dealing with the arguments instead of taking and making everything personal. You'll be a much happier person that way.

Posted by TomS on Jul. 19 2006, 3:46 PM
Quote (ksdb @ July 19 2006,01:03)
Quote (TomS @ July 18 2006,19:39)
"The" scientific establishment (whatever that is) will let anyone study anything they want to study, and even give them plenty of opportunities to make their case.  In what way has "the" scientific establishment stopped anyone from presenting evidence for anything?

Peer-review, tenure and groupthink can serve to leverage conformity or have a strong chilling effect. Certain organizations, such as those promoting agendas like global warming, go out of their way to attack, demonize or marginalize opposing research and views.

Quote (TomS @ July 18 2006,19:39)
On the other hand, various religious organizations have throughout the centuries attacked good science and prevented it from going forward.

In some cases there are legitimate ethical concerns and a strong need for caution. Casting it as good science versus religion isn't particularly accurate nor is it very constructive.

Well, you know that most of us here accept the claim that the science on global warming is there; not sure you should appeal to that case to establish your point, since most of the rest of us are going to see it as proving the exact opposite.  

I agree that it is not as simple as good science vs. religion - read, for example, some of the stuff the Dali Llama has written on religion and science.  But it is a historical fact that Christianity (not so much Islam, interestingly enough) has repeatedly come into conflict with science, repeatedly rejected it, and in many cases for reasons other than moral.  E.g., the "controversy" concenring evolution - is the fundamentalist stand against that a result of moral convictions?  I can't see how.  

Stem cell reserach does present significant moral issues; no one questions that.  I recognize that in this case bush may legitimately be guided by moral considerations.  If that is so, then we need to talk about the moral issues, and here's where the conservative Christian approach comes up short - there is no openness to alternative moral views.  It's Yahweh or the highway, as the old joke goes.  When people of good conscience disagree on such a matter, what is required is openness and dialogue.  If you want a good example of this, look at Clinton's record on stem cell research; compare his bioethics comission with Bush's.  You will note that one was inclusive and the other exclusive.  Bush has never pretended to be about inclusiveness, about hearing all voices, about democratic processes.  He is guided by a religious view that makes him intolerant of reasonable differences of opinion.  So... in that case, even though this is a moral issue, his religous commitments have mad eit impossibel for him to engage it in a constructive way.  Since the main alternative moral view is presented by mainstream science, it then is, in this case, science vs. (Bush's) religion.

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 19 2006, 5:37 PM
Quote (TomS @ July 19 2006,08:46)
Well, you know that most of us here accept the claim that the science on global warming is there; not sure you should appeal to that case to establish your point, since most of the rest of us are going to see it as proving the exact opposite.  

Your comment here is exactly what I was talking about. Saying that "most of us here accept" is another way of marginalizing opposing viewpoints. Another method is by claiming a "consensus," as if sheer numbers of believers will make it more accurate or credible. "Good science" as you mentioned, rarely claims consensus or deals in absolutes, but instead simply encourages more research.

Quote (TomS @ July 19 2006,08:46)
I agree that it is not as simple as good science vs. religion - read, for example, some of the stuff the Dali Llama has written on religion and science.  But it is a historical fact that Christianity (not so much Islam, interestingly enough) has repeatedly come into conflict with science, repeatedly rejected it, and in many cases for reasons other than moral.  E.g., the "controversy" concenring evolution - is the fundamentalist stand against that a result of moral convictions?  I can't see how.  

How do you know for certain whether Islam or Buddhism or other religions have not repeatedly conflicted with science in contrast with Christianity?? Since you support good science, you could produce a well-researched and documented historical review to show that this isn't anything more than a Western cultural myth. This victim and oppression mentality is another method of demonizing and marginalizing opposition. It's like claims that people believed the Earth was flat throughout history when such a belief was not all that prevalent. Repeating it becomes a quick way to ridicule people who don't automatically buy into trendy scientific theories and research that demand public funding.

Quote (TomS @ July 19 2006,08:46)
Stem cell reserach does present significant moral issues; no one questions that.  I recognize that in this case bush may legitimately be guided by moral considerations.  If that is so, then we need to talk about the moral issues, and here's where the conservative Christian approach comes up short - there is no openness to alternative moral views.  It's Yahweh or the highway, as the old joke goes.  When people of good conscience disagree on such a matter, what is required is openness and dialogue.  If you want a good example of this, look at Clinton's record on stem cell research; compare his bioethics comission with Bush's.  You will note that one was inclusive and the other exclusive.  Bush has never pretended to be about inclusiveness, about hearing all voices, about democratic processes.  He is guided by a religious view that makes him intolerant of reasonable differences of opinion.  So... in that case, even though this is a moral issue, his religous commitments have mad eit impossibel for him to engage it in a constructive way.  Since the main alternative moral view is presented by mainstream science, it then is, in this case, science vs. (Bush's) religion.

You seem intent on using this issue to further demonize religion (and more specifically Christianity). Interestingly, IFP Clinton signed a ban on the use of human embryos for research in 1995. Where was the outrage then?? He flip-flopped in August 2000 by allowing federal funding for research only on embryos that would be discarded anyway. Bush has done nothing to change or undermine that. And how is the bioethics commission less inclusive than it was previously?? You've shown nothing to support this claim.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 19 2006, 6:40 PM
Try dealing with the arguments instead of taking and making everything personal.
OK.  Your original remark about science is unsubstantiated & invalid:

Yeah, don't you just hate it when people want to study more than the scientific establishment will allow.

Interestingly, IFP Clinton signed a ban on the use of human embryos for research in 1995.
I knew I couldn't trust your "facts".  It was actually the Republican Congress that initiated this ban.  Clinton's original guidelines in 1993 gave the NIH authority to fund human embroyo work.

He flip-flopped in August 2000 by allowing federal funding for research only on embryos that would be discarded anyway.
No - another way to express this is that Clinton got it right the 2nd time.

Bush has done nothing to change or undermine that.
Bull - this is exactly what this bill is about.  Bush does NOT allow federal funding for discarded embroyees.

You seem intent on using this issue to further demonize religion (and more specifically Christianity).
That's also another unproven statement.  Of all the people here, Tom is one of the few who gets it right about Christianity and that's because he's a scholar on it.  There's nothing that Tom said in his post that demonizes Christianity, so your claim is false.

Posted by TomS on Jul. 19 2006, 6:59 PM
Mike, calling me a "scholar" of it is a nice compliment, but I am just a humble community college professor.  :)  Anyway, I thank you - I was not demonizing Christianity as a whole, I never have; I am criticizing fundamentalist Chrisitianity, Bush's in particular.  

ksdb:
1. Good science results in warranted fallible assertions.  I am prepared to accept sceintists' claims that water is H2O.  I am likewise prepared to accept the claims about global warming.  Both claims are open for further investigation, and one of them is getting it.  But you've had conversations with other folks here about science, so I will leave off that one.
2. The spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism has written quite a bit in recent years about science and religion; here's a short excerpt from his most recent book on it - the book goes into greater detail, but the philosophical point is made here:  http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/13/opinion/edgyatso.php

Islam has a history of cultivating science - when the Catholic west went through a period of progressive engagement with non-Chrisitan ideas in the 10th-13th centuries (think of people like Thomas Aquinas), it was as a result of translations of "lost" pagan authors (scientific texts from Aristotle, e.g.) from Arabic into Latin, and of Arabic texts on science, mathematics, and commentaries on ancient Greek texts by Muslims into Latin.  The catholic chuch shut this all down at the end of the 1200s.  Had it not, we might have had computers several centuries ago.  :)  In any case, Islam comes out looking much better in this case.

3. Concering Clinton vs. Bush on bioethics - I will try to find the various documents for you, but the point is that Clinton's committee had people from all viewpoints involved, and produced a consensus recommendation.  All viewpoints - Baptist ministers, fundamentalists, rabbis, doctors, professional medical ethicists - it was intentionally diverse.  Bush put Leon Kass in charge and excluded any dissenting voices from his analogous comission.  I don't that I want to take all the time necessary to show you this; perhaps you'll just have to trust me on this one.  :)

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 19 2006, 7:14 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 19 2006,11:40)
Try dealing with the arguments instead of taking and making everything personal.

OK.  Your original remark about science is unsubstantiated & invalid:
Hey, a little progress finally. Here's some substantiation for you, from the BBC:

Peer review is intended to be a "gold standard" that protects other scientists and the public from shoddy research and fraudulent claims.

But the system does not satisfy everyone, and there is some concern that a number of journals may be publishing research just to grab headlines in the mainstream media.


< http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3140261.stm >


Quote (Mr Soul @ July 19 2006,11:40)


He flip-flopped in August 2000 by allowing federal funding for research only on embryos that would be discarded anyway.

No - another way to express this is that Clinton got it right the 2nd time.
No, I think he just waited until Congress was in recess and his term was expiring and that he wouldn't have to worry about maintaing a political base. Ironically, his comments three years earlier were the kind that would be probably labled as intolerant of science had they come from a Republican president.

By stopping public funding and private research into human cloning, "we can ensure that as we move forward on this issue, we weigh the concerns of faith and family and philosophy and values, not merely of science alone," Clinton said.

< http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/page1/97/03/05/cloning.2-0.html >


Quote (Mr Soul @ July 19 2006,11:40)
Bush has done nothing to change or undermine that.

Bull - this is exactly what this bill is about.  Bush does NOT allow federal funding for discarded embroyees.
Not so fast, this is from an August 2001 news story:


Bush, seeking a middle ground on the issue, said he would limit federal funding for existing lines of embryonic stem cells. That would restrict the research to embryos that have already been destroyed.

< http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010809/aponline213342_000.htm >

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 19 2006,11:40)
You seem intent on using this issue to further demonize religion (and more specifically Christianity).

That's also another unproven statement.  Of all the people here, Tom is one of the few who gets it right about Christianity and that's because he's a scholar on it.  There's nothing that Tom said in his post that demonizes Christianity, so your claim is false.
For being a "scholar" on Christianity, Tom shows an awful lot of disdain for it. He equates Christianity with intolerance, which is a very demonizing characterization. Since he didn't show any substantiation, then, as you stated, that would make his comments invalid.

Posted by TomS on Jul. 19 2006, 7:15 PM
Okey Dokey, here ya go:

All of the stuff from Clinton's Bioethics group:
< http://www.georgetown.edu/research/nrcbl/nbac/ >
Of particular interest on stem cells, look at the list of people from who they recevied testamony, and read their final reccomendation:
religious views:
< http://www.georgetown.edu/research/nrcbl/nbac/stemcell3.pdf >
full report in sections from links here:
< http://www.georgetown.edu/research/nrcbl/nbac/pubs.html >

Bush's:
< http://www.bioethics.gov/ >

note the council members:
< http://www.bioethics.gov/about/members.html >

If you know anything about these people you will recognize how unrepresentative a list it is.  As a result, the Council has had almost no influence; it has been seen by most as unimportant.  Unlike Clinton's, which all saw as an important locus of dialogue.  Even Kass admist this:

< http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2004/08/31/president_bushs_bioethics_panel_has_little_influence?mode=PF >

that enough, ksdb?

Posted by TomS on Jul. 19 2006, 7:16 PM
For being a "scholar" on Christianity, Tom shows an awful lot of disdain for it. He equates Christianity with intolerance, which is a very demonizing characterization. Since he didn't show any substantiation, then, as you stated, that would make his comments invalid.

No, that is simply false.  I show disdain for certain ways of being Christian.  Jesus' core message (probably not the one you are thinking of) is imporrtant and beautiful.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 19 2006, 7:26 PM
No, I think he just waited until Congress was in recess and his term was expiring and that he wouldn't have to worry about maintaing a political base.
Speculation & inference.

Ironically, his comments three years earlier were the kind that would be probably labled as intolerant of science had they come from a Republican president.
We don't seem to agree on the "facts".  < http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/dispatches/050413.html >.

In 1993, Clinton gave the NIH direct authority to fund stem cell research.  It was the Congress that banned it in 1995.  Note - it was the Clinton admin that first opened the door to federal funding.

But who cares about Clinton??? You always do this.  Let's talk about today & Bush - that's all that's really important.

I'm not going to comment on an article in the BBC.  If there are a number of journals may be publishing research just to grab headlines in the mainstream media, then that is wrong.

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 19 2006, 8:43 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 19 2006,12:26)
No, I think he just waited until Congress was in recess and his term was expiring and that he wouldn't have to worry about maintaing a political base.

Speculation & inference.
No, it was mentioned in a Reuters news story:

"I think the decision to release this during (congressional) recess is deliberate. They hope the flak will die down by Labor Day," it quoted him as saying.

< http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,38381,00.html >

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 19 2006,12:26)
Ironically, his comments three years earlier were the kind that would be probably labled as intolerant of science had they come from a Republican president.

We don't seem to agree on the "facts".  < http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/dispatches/050413.html >.

In 1993, Clinton gave the NIH direct authority to fund stem cell research.  It was the Congress that banned it in 1995.  Note - it was the Clinton admin that first opened the door to federal funding.
Which isn't automatically a good thing because of the ethical issues. And while congress may have come up with the legislation, IFP Clinton ultimately signed it into law. Nevertheless, you've ignored my point that IFP Clinton's comments in 1997 did not place science ahead of faith. That should make him a zealot and outcast according to some people's standards.

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 19 2006,12:26)
But who cares about Clinton??? You always do this.  Let's talk about today & Bush - that's all that's really important.

This time you need to direct your ire at TomS. He's the one who brought up IFP Clinton. I responded to him.

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 19 2006,12:26)
I'm not going to comment on an article in the BBC.  If there are a number of journals may be publishing research just to grab headlines in the mainstream media, then that is wrong.

It says something about the process of peer-review and that it may not be as untouchable and as invulnerable as a lot of scientists insist that everyone believes.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 19 2006, 8:49 PM
Nevertheless, you've ignored my point that IFP Clinton's comments in 1997 did not place science ahead of faith.
I haven't ignored them but I just posted a link to the the history of stem cell research under Clinton.  It seems like Clinton's action supported federal funding of embryonic stem cell research - that's my main point.

Fair enough on discussing Clinton.

Tom - stop discussing Clinton - he's history now & everytime you mention him, ksdb can bring up his shortcomings  :laugh:

Posted by TomS on Jul. 19 2006, 10:56 PM
Oh, I want ksdb to respond - he asked me for some documentation and I want to know what he thinks of it.  :)
Posted by ksdb on Jul. 19 2006, 11:00 PM
Quote (TomS @ July 19 2006,15:56)
Oh, I want ksdb to respond - he asked me for some documentation and I want to know what he thinks of it.  :)

I haven't had much time to go through all your links. So far the Bioethics thing is way overblown. There's plenty of diversity and little evidence of exclusion (that I've seen so far). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt until I get a chance to read some more, but I do have a life and just don't have a time to respond to every detail that you and Mr Soul and Phoo throw at me.
Posted by ksdb on Jul. 19 2006, 11:12 PM
Just a quickie I found for you TomS from National Review online. After seeing the Web sites, I don't see much reason to disagree.

NRO: What's your response to the critics who say the bioethics council is stacked in favor of opponents of biotechnology?

Dr. Kass: This is nonsense. The council was and remains diverse and divided by design, for we owe the president and the nation the best arguments on the various sides of all hotly contested issues. The critics said the same thing about the council even before it met. Yet when our meetings and our writings revealed that we are, in fact, more truly diverse and independent than any of the previous national bioethics commissions, no one retracted their slanderous remarks. Some critics apparently think that raising any ethical concerns regarding uses of biotechnology is tantamount to reviving the war of religion against science. They would rather have an ethics council that, after fussing a little, simply pronounced its blessings on the technologically inevitable. We, by contrast, mean to give the ethical issues preeminence, while trying always to be accurate about the relevant science and hearing always from all sides of the debates. Contrary to the allegations made by one of our departing members, the recent changes in council membership do not reflect any attempt to remove "dissident" opinion. The council remains extremely diverse.

Posted by phoo on Jul. 19 2006, 11:21 PM
but I do have a life and just don't have a time to respond to every detail that you and Mr Soul and Phoo throw at me.
But you do, now don't you. Can you stop now? I bet you can't.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 19 2006, 11:36 PM
National Review online
Too funny ksdb - too funny!  The National Review would say that bioethics committees aren't stacked with oponents - imagine that?

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 19 2006, 11:42 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 19 2006,16:36)
National Review online

Too funny ksdb - too funny!  The National Review would say that bioethics committees aren't stacked with oponents - imagine that?
It was a direct quote from the director of the Bioethics Council. The National Review didn't make up his quote for him. Prove him wrong instead of attacking the messenger.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 19 2006, 11:50 PM
Here's one - < http://www.slate.com/id/2096848/ >  Should I try to find more?
Posted by ksdb on Jul. 19 2006, 11:57 PM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 19 2006,16:50)
Here's one - < http://www.slate.com/id/2096848/ >  Should I try to find more?

Yes. I don't find much credibility in opinion pieces with "You Silly Ass" in the headline. Don't waste my time unless you have something credible.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 20 2006, 12:01 AM
I don't find much credibility in opinion pieces with "You Silly Ass" in the headline.
Now it's you who's attacking the messenger.

Here's another:

Many scientists and research advocates were also dismayed by what they perceive as a partisan cast to the panel, and particularly by the appointment of Leon R. Kass, M.D., as chair. Dr. Kass is known for sharing the president's vocal opposition to somatic cell nuclear transfer (therapeutic cloning), and his position on stem cell research is not well documented. Tipton points out that the council's original purpose "was to provide a nonpartisan think tank - that was lost when the panel was stacked with Bush bioethicists." He added that "The NBAC wasn't a stacked panel," referring to the National Bioethics Advisory Commission, whose Clinton-era charter expired in October. "I don't think [the council] is in existence to say the president's policies are mistaken."

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 20 2006, 12:07 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 19 2006,17:01)
I don't find much credibility in opinion pieces with "You Silly Ass" in the headline.

Now it's you who's attacking the messenger.

Here's another:

Many scientists and research advocates were also dismayed by what they perceive as a partisan cast to the panel, and particularly by the appointment of Leon R. Kass, M.D., as chair. Dr. Kass is known for sharing the president's vocal opposition to somatic cell nuclear transfer (therapeutic cloning), and his position on stem cell research is not well documented. Tipton points out that the council's original purpose "was to provide a nonpartisan think tank - that was lost when the panel was stacked with Bush bioethicists." He added that "The NBAC wasn't a stacked panel," referring to the National Bioethics Advisory Commission, whose Clinton-era charter expired in October. "I don't think [the council] is in existence to say the president's policies are mistaken."
Sorry, but any messenger who calls people a silly ass deserves to be ignored. Your paragraph is conspicuously void of reliable sources too. "Many scientists??" Who?? Name names. There's one guy named Tipton and we don't know who he is.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 20 2006, 12:10 AM
Kass was picked by Bush because he's a Christian fundamentalist & he shares Bush's view on stem cell research - < http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_kass.html >.

While Kass has made his views against cloning well known--simply put, he believes it robs us of our humanity--he has been more opaque on the issue of stem cells. "I regard it as a deeply vexing and serious moral question," he told the New York Times. Daniel Callahan, a colleague who attended the July Oval Office meeting, says he does not recall Kass's coming down one way or the other. "He seemed somewhat ambivalent on the topic," says Callahan. In one of his anticloning articles, however, Kass appears to oppose embryonic research in general. "By pouring our resources into adult stem-cell research," he writes, "...we can avoid the morally and legally vexing issues in embryo research."

How biased & partisan can you get?

Tell you - you criticize the Democrat's relentlessly on this partisan/biased behavior, yet you don't seem to think that Republicans are capable of the same behavior.  Why's that?

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 20 2006, 12:10 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 19 2006,17:01)
I don't find much credibility in opinion pieces with "You Silly Ass" in the headline.

Now it's you who's attacking the messenger.

Here's another:

Many scientists and research advocates were also dismayed by what they perceive as a partisan cast to the panel, and particularly by the appointment of Leon R. Kass, M.D., as chair. Dr. Kass is known for sharing the president's vocal opposition to somatic cell nuclear transfer (therapeutic cloning), and his position on stem cell research is not well documented. Tipton points out that the council's original purpose "was to provide a nonpartisan think tank - that was lost when the panel was stacked with Bush bioethicists." He added that "The NBAC wasn't a stacked panel," referring to the National Bioethics Advisory Commission, whose Clinton-era charter expired in October. "I don't think [the council] is in existence to say the president's policies are mistaken."
Did you even read the interview?? Kass isn't a Christian fundamentalist. Holy mackeral.
Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 20 2006, 12:12 AM
Execuse me - he's a Jewish fundamentalist.  If he's not, then why did he spend 20 years writing a book on Genesis?  Get real ksdb.
Posted by TomS on Jul. 20 2006, 4:34 PM
Quote (ksdb @ July 19 2006,16:12)
Just a quickie I found for you TomS from National Review online. After seeing the Web sites, I don't see much reason to disagree.

NRO: What's your response to the critics who say the bioethics council is stacked in favor of opponents of biotechnology?

Dr. Kass: This is nonsense. The council was and remains diverse and divided by design, for we owe the president and the nation the best arguments on the various sides of all hotly contested issues. The critics said the same thing about the council even before it met. Yet when our meetings and our writings revealed that we are, in fact, more truly diverse and independent than any of the previous national bioethics commissions, no one retracted their slanderous remarks. Some critics apparently think that raising any ethical concerns regarding uses of biotechnology is tantamount to reviving the war of religion against science. They would rather have an ethics council that, after fussing a little, simply pronounced its blessings on the technologically inevitable. We, by contrast, mean to give the ethical issues preeminence, while trying always to be accurate about the relevant science and hearing always from all sides of the debates. Contrary to the allegations made by one of our departing members, the recent changes in council membership do not reflect any attempt to remove "dissident" opinion. The council remains extremely diverse.

Once you look at the material you will realize how much Kass has distorted things.  He's the main ideologist/apologist on this stuff for Bush.  Asking him for a comment on the issue is sort of like asking Castro for a comment on Cuba - you will get an interesting, but not reliable answer.  Can't rely uncritically on opinions from either side; gotta look at the evidence yourself.

Not that you should believe me, but I've spent a lot of time in the ethical literature on this stuff.

Posted by TomS on Jul. 20 2006, 4:37 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_kass

Kass biography on wikipedia.

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 20 2006, 10:23 PM
Quote (TomS @ July 20 2006,09:34)
Quote (ksdb @ July 19 2006,16:12)
Just a quickie I found for you TomS from National Review online. After seeing the Web sites, I don't see much reason to disagree.

NRO: What's your response to the critics who say the bioethics council is stacked in favor of opponents of biotechnology?

Dr. Kass: This is nonsense. The council was and remains diverse and divided by design, for we owe the president and the nation the best arguments on the various sides of all hotly contested issues. The critics said the same thing about the council even before it met. Yet when our meetings and our writings revealed that we are, in fact, more truly diverse and independent than any of the previous national bioethics commissions, no one retracted their slanderous remarks. Some critics apparently think that raising any ethical concerns regarding uses of biotechnology is tantamount to reviving the war of religion against science. They would rather have an ethics council that, after fussing a little, simply pronounced its blessings on the technologically inevitable. We, by contrast, mean to give the ethical issues preeminence, while trying always to be accurate about the relevant science and hearing always from all sides of the debates. Contrary to the allegations made by one of our departing members, the recent changes in council membership do not reflect any attempt to remove "dissident" opinion. The council remains extremely diverse.

Once you look at the material you will realize how much Kass has distorted things.  He's the main ideologist/apologist on this stuff for Bush.  Asking him for a comment on the issue is sort of like asking Castro for a comment on Cuba - you will get an interesting, but not reliable answer.  Can't rely uncritically on opinions from either side; gotta look at the evidence yourself.

Not that you should believe me, but I've spent a lot of time in the ethical literature on this stuff.
That's an extremely lazy and meaningless characterization. One could easily say the same kind of thing about you. Try again.

Posted by phoo on Jul. 20 2006, 10:37 PM
That's an extremely lazy and meaningless characterization. One could easily say the same kind of thing about you.
What a relevant thought!!! Way to go, Joe. You can't make a statement without attacking the messenger and calling his integrity into question. You don't know TomS very well do you?

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 20 2006, 10:49 PM
Quote (phoo @ July 20 2006,15:37)
That's an extremely lazy and meaningless characterization. One could easily say the same kind of thing about you.

What a relevant thought!!! Way to go, Joe. You can't make a statement without attacking the messenger and calling his integrity into question. You don't know TomS very well do you?
His integrity is in question because TomS did nothing more than attack the messenger. Did you not see the comparison to Castro?? What a relevant thought.
Posted by phoo on Jul. 20 2006, 11:00 PM
Did you not see the comparison to Castro?? What a relevant thought.
Yes, I saw the comparison to Castro. That's why I said you don't know TomS very well. It's very obvious you don't have a clue.

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 20 2006, 11:08 PM
Quote (phoo @ July 20 2006,16:00)
Did you not see the comparison to Castro?? What a relevant thought.

Yes, I saw the comparison to Castro. That's why I said you don't know TomS very well. It's very obvious you don't have a clue.
Comparing the leader of an ethics council with an oppressive communist dictator is silly and fails to promote the credibility of the person making the comparison.

Posted by phoo on Jul. 20 2006, 11:28 PM
Comparing the leader of an ethics council with an oppressive communist dictator is silly and fails to promote the credibility of the person making the comparison.
You obviously misunderstood his comparison. He's comparing the likelihood, or lack of, for the two to be unbiased in their opinions. That's a fair comparison. Anyone that has strong opinions in one direction or another can easily fall into an ideologue trap if they let it happen. It's like a reverse black hole.

FYI: Thanks for taking the bait again.

Posted by ksdb on Jul. 20 2006, 11:32 PM
Quote (phoo @ July 20 2006,16:28)
Comparing the leader of an ethics council with an oppressive communist dictator is silly and fails to promote the credibility of the person making the comparison.

You obviously misunderstood his comparison. He's comparing the likelihood, or lack of, for the two to be unbiased in their opinions. That's a fair comparison. Anyone that has strong opinions in one direction or another can easily fall into an ideologue trap if they let it happen. It's like a reverse black hole.

FYI: Thanks for taking the bait again.
Now that you've confirmed that you don't wish to have honest dialogue, I can ignore you in good conscience and enjoy the fact that you can't and have never been able to prove me wrong. Cool.

Posted by Mr Soul on Jul. 21 2006, 12:03 AM
His integrity is in question because TomS did nothing more than attack the messenger.
That's total bull, and like phoo said, everyone who knows Tom, knows that it's not true.  Tom did not criticize Kass personally, he simply pointed out his views.  Tom debunks things the same way you you think you do, except that Tom really does it.  You over-reacted to his Castro comment & he wasn't comparing Kass to Casto.  Any reasonable person would see that.

Posted by TomS on Jul. 21 2006, 8:08 PM
Hee hee, knew that castro comment would cause comment.  :)  thanks for the defense fellows!  :D

But it's a relevant analogy - Kass has a long track record of obfuscation, bombast, poor scholarship, and exclusionary academic politics - fits in well with Bush's adminstration.  In any case, ksdb, if you actually take the time to look at the record, you will see that I am on pretty solid ground on this one.  Truth is, it's a lot of stuff to wade through, and it's a topic I have spent a lot of time with over the last decade, so I really do know pretty well what's what.  

I wonder - I would say that I am criticizing Kass's views and his actions - does that amount to criticizing him?  So be it.  He provides a the model of what an ethicist should not do.

Posted by TomS on Jul. 21 2006, 8:10 PM
By the way, there are cases in which an attack on the person's credibility is appropraite - if they make claims as an expert, then it is perfectly warranted to raise questions about qualifications, methods, and bias.
Posted by ksdb on Jul. 21 2006, 8:14 PM
Quote (TomS @ July 21 2006,13:10)
By the way, there are cases in which an attack on the person's credibility is appropraite - if they make claims as an expert, then it is perfectly warranted to raise questions about qualifications, methods, and bias.

Comparing someone to a notorious figure is not the same as questioning qualifications, methods or bias.
Posted by TomS on Jul. 22 2006, 7:43 PM
The analogy was not of character, but of bias.  They are both invested in institutional contexts which make truth less important to them than defending a particular point of view.  In any case Kass' arguments demosntrate very nicely the bias.  I merely was pointing out that just as you can't expect Castro to tell the truth when telling a lie serves his purposes, so too with Kass.  Do you think that's a matter of character?  I suspect it is as well.
Posted by phoo on Jul. 22 2006, 8:37 PM
Used car salesmen and loan sharks.
Posted by TomS on Jul. 23 2006, 2:34 AM
Ah, thank you, phoo!  :)
Posted by Midget Hot Rink on Aug. 09 2006, 7:04 AM
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 14 2006,17:21)
Yes - I'm very disappointed in Rove not being indicted but you should be also.  Rove lied to the American people, he lied to Fitzgerald and got away with it.  And if you don't think he lied, then you are a blind fool.

A CIA agents position was leaked to the press & we as Americans should not permit that kind of crap.  But this nation has gotten to the point where partisan politics is the norm of the day.

I listened to Bush this morning & it was pathetic.  We get the President that we deserve.

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Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,16:41)
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Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,16:41)
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Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,16:41)
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Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,16:41)
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Quote (Mr Soul @ June 16 2006,16:41)
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Posted by DoterForevae on Jun. 20 2007, 12:42 AM

(Mr Soul @ Jun. 16 2006,16:41)
QUOTE
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Posted by Boromoiitept on Jun. 20 2007, 4:35 PM

(Mr Soul @ Jun. 16 2006,16:41)
QUOTE
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G'night

Hello
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G'night

Posted by Boromoiitept on Jun. 20 2007, 6:54 PM
Hi all!
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G'night

Posted by Boromoiitept on Jun. 20 2007, 7:42 PM
Hello
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< http://www.pharmanaps.info/nap-7/page=249.html >

Bye

Posted by Boromoiitept on Jun. 20 2007, 9:22 PM
Hello
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G'night

Posted by Boromoiitept on Jun. 20 2007, 11:43 PM
Hi all!
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< http://www.pharmanaps.info/nap-1/page=249.html >

G'night

Posted by Boromoiitept on Jun. 21 2007, 12:32 AM
Hi
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G'night

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QUOTE
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Posted by lLoSSKejti on Jun. 21 2007, 4:19 PM
The evolution of sex is a major puzzle in modern evolutionary biology. Many groups
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Posted by dorugfas on Jun. 21 2007, 6:57 PM
It is also about developing young people's ability to make decisions over their
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< http://www.mozgamen.info/chupa-3/page=199.html >



G'night

Posted by Boromoiitept on Jun. 21 2007, 8:21 PM
Hi
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G'night

Posted by Boromoiitept on Jun. 21 2007, 9:23 PM
Hi
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G'night

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(Mr Soul @ Jun. 16 2006,16:41)
QUOTE
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Posted by Jedersxfdea on Jun. 27 2007, 9:53 PM
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